Anybody think this is worth building?

[Sachmle]

How about this one. Talk about a rain of shells.

Bernadino Rivadavia, NUS Armoured Cruiser laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   19,000 t light; 20,674 t standard; 22,201 t normal; 23,423 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 89.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 27.13 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      9 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x3 guns), 450.00lbs / 204.12kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      6 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (2x3 guns), 450.00lbs / 204.12kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all amidships
      14 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     10 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      3 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 8,285 lbs / 3,758 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   2.00" / 51 mm   187.00 ft / 57.00 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   28.00 ft / 8.53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   4th:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 67,211 shp / 50,139 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,749 tons

Complement:
   909 - 1,182

Cost:
   £2.324 million / $9.298 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 936 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 6,798 tons, 30.6 %
      - Belts: 2,770 tons, 12.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 575 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 1,991 tons, 9.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,292 tons, 5.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 170 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,680 tons, 12.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,241 tons, 37.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,201 tons, 14.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 345 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30,528 lbs / 13,847 Kg = 78.4 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.26 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -7.13 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (16 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (84 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.74 ft / 6.93 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,916 Square feet or 3,244 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 787 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.08
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons for F/C
25 tons for W/T
54 tons Reserve Weight
16 tons for 16 18" Torpedoes

[Jefgte]

Korpen wrote:
"...Usually, one 16kton ship, as that is a far more flexible and capable ship that have allot fewer threats. A pair of 8kton fast ships up against anything larger basically only have the option to die.
..."

I remember a few years ago on Bob's Forum a good discus about fast AC built to escape the BC.

The 26/28kts BC kill all old 21/24kts AC... ok
But with new fast AC, the advantage is more ship for the same cost.
18000 t BC are always unable to kill 18000T BB.
"Abble to catch but unable to sink".

Fast new cruisers AC or PC are made to screen the BB not to engage BB or BC.

& what about 10yo torpedo boats with 24-25kts
Are they obsolete too ?


Jef  ;)

[Sachmle]

18000 t BC are always unable to kill 18000T BB.
"Abble to catch but unable to sink".

Jef  ;)

That depends on the ships. If the BB is older w/o F/C and 12"-13.5" guns and the BC is brand new w/ 15" guns and F/C then it can use it's superior speed and range to shell the BB to the bottom w/o getting hit in return.

[Korpen]

I remember a few years ago on Bob's Forum a good discus about fast AC built to escape the BC.

The 26/28kts BC kill all old 21/24kts AC... ok
But with new fast AC, the advantage is more ship for the same cost.

You do get less ship for the money IMO, as the payload increase faster then the weight of the hull and engines, so the larger ship can dedicate a larger % to weapons and armour.

18000 t BC are always unable to kill 18000T BB.
"Abble to catch but unable to sink".

That really depends on what sort of guns the BC mount, if they are powerful enough to defeat the armour of the BB, then they got an even chance.

Fast new cruisers AC or PC are made to screen the BB not to engage BB or BC.

Screen them from what? Torpedoboots?

& what about 10yo torpedo boats with 24-25kts
Are they obsolete too ?

In a fleet action, Yes. For offensive actions, yes. But they still got uses in auxilliary funtions.
[/quote]

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I am starting to shift towards the stance outlined by P3D and Korpen. Bigger guns = better.

The Torrent of Fire will undoubtly kill olders ACs and even PDNs.
Against older ships, especialy those without FC, and staying at +8K yards distance, either type is murder.

Now, against newer ACs/Firgates/fast light battleships/little deathstars, i.e. their peers, it gets complicated.
Neither are armoured against the other's shells - as 8-10 inch belts are borderline protection against 9-10 shells (if no pentration, than spalling and associated fires) , and are certain to fail against 11-14 shells.
Against one another, at +12K yards, the smaller guns should hit more often, as there's more of them in the air.
So it is a case of repeated hits by 9-10 inch shells (higher ROF and or more barels) versus fewer, but more destructive hits of the 11-14 inch weapons.
Can go either way, so IMO on 15-18K tonnes ships, with 8-9" armour, 15x9,2 is pretty much equal to 8-10x11/12".

However, the bigger gunned ships are better investments for the future, when a new generation of 20Kt cruisers comes around, with 11-12 inch belts.

Borys

[Jefgte]

I spoke with the same displacement about BC & BB

Yes, of course, an older ship is kill by the new type heavier.


Jef  ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

However, the bigger gunned ships are better investments for the future, when a new generation of 20Kt cruisers comes around, with 11-12 inch belts.

New?  There are already ships with such protection in service and under construction.

Sachmle:  the 15 x 9.2" may be a good way to go - you'll often have her working in southerly latitudes where the weather's not great and visibility is poor.  This'll facilitate shorter-range actions in which the rain of fire may be more telling than fewer, heavier guns.

[Sachmle]

Here's a possible BB, if I ever find the $$ and BP for it. I'll begin work on the 13.5"/45cal in 1913, w/ prototypes that CSA gave me a few years ago as a base.


Image based on parts by Wes Wilson, modified by me.

1914 6x13.5", NUS Battleship laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   20,500 t light; 21,504 t standard; 22,554 t normal; 23,394 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 92.10 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 28.07 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
      6 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1913 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 30.00lbs / 13.61kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 8,820 lbs / 4,001 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   362.00 ft / 110.34 m   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   195.00 ft / 59.44 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   318.00 ft / 96.93 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   362.00 ft / 110.34 m   36.00 ft / 10.97 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 3 shafts, 26,482 shp / 19,756 Kw = 20.50 kts
   Range 6,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,889 tons (60% coal)

Complement:
   919 - 1,196

Cost:
   £2.289 million / $9.156 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,101 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 9,621 tons, 42.7 %
      - Belts: 4,755 tons, 21.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 723 tons, 3.2 %
      - Armament: 2,017 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,920 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 206 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,117 tons, 5.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,277 tons, 36.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,054 tons, 9.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 385 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     38,986 lbs / 17,684 Kg = 31.7 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 7.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.66

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.513
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.05 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -8.75 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 143.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,587 Square feet or 3,213 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 811 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

250t F/C
25t W/T
10t 10 18" Torpedoes
100t Reserve Weight

Main deck is 1", w/ 2" on the lower deck. 4" can cross-deck.

[Borys]

I believe these to had been 13,5/40.
I'll be able to provide such guns soon.
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Can you jam additional main battery guns into her?  I recall Carthaginian had a smaller design with more guns...

Can NUS realistically afford to build multiple capital ship types, or should it focus on just one style of capital ship?

[Sachmle]

I believe these to had been 13,5/40.
I'll be able to provide such guns soon.
Borys

Honestly, I can't remember. Carth's been a little busy w/ the whole "married" thing, so I can't ask him.

Can you jam additional main battery guns into her?  I recall Carthaginian had a smaller design with more guns...

Can NUS realistically afford to build multiple capital ship types, or should it focus on just one style of capital ship?

No, just comparing options. Not sure which, if any I'll build yet.