Anybody think this is worth building?

Started by Sachmle, May 26, 2008, 09:34:31 PM

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Korpen

Quote from: Sachmle on May 28, 2008, 12:34:45 PM
Would it be worth ditching the torpedoes any using that weight to increase armor?
Yes and no.
That is, I think it is worth keeping the torpedoes, they add flexibility and tactical options.
But the loadout can be reduced quite allot, as I think it would be rare to use more then two-three torpedoes in a single action at most. I guess the tubes share torpedo room, so reducing the number of torpedoes to 4-6 should not affect she capabilities in any significant way.
Card-carrying member of the Battlecruiser Fan Club.

P3D

Quote from: Sachmle on May 28, 2008, 12:34:45 PM
Would it be worth ditching the torpedoes any using that weight to increase armor?

The ship would operate as a cruiser - sometimes alone. The two TTs are justified as coup-de-grace weapons.
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

Sachmle

#17
I thank you both for the input, and have decided to cut the number to 4 per tube, or 16 total, increasing to 2 tubes per side.

QuoteI guess the tubes share torpedo room
Two tube per side, directly across from each other.
"All treaties between great states cease to be binding when they come in conflict with the struggle for existence."
Otto von Bismarck

"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
Kaiser Wilhelm

"If stupidity were painfull I would be deaf from all the screaming." Sam A. Grim

Borys

#18
Ahoj!
A von der Tann for you.
I know that eight guns good, but ten guns better ... but for chasing down cruisers and the odd pre-dreadnaught, eight should be plenty. And you save a couple of BPs.
EDIT: I BOOPED UP THE DESIGN - FOUR SINGLES :)
SO ANYBODY INTERESTED IN THE DESIGN CAN TWEAK IT - I DID NOT SAVE THE FILE :)
Borys

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912 (Engine 1914)

Displacement:
   15 365 t light; 16 133 t standard; 17 498 t normal; 18 590 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570,54 ft / 570,00 ft x 75,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   173,90 m / 173,74 m x 22,86 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      4 - 11,10" / 282 mm guns in single mounts, 650,00lbs / 294,84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 11,10" / 282 mm guns in single mounts, 650,00lbs / 294,84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 6 400 lbs / 2 903 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   150,00 ft / 45,72 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 113% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   28,00 ft / 8,53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 12 shafts, 55 769 shp / 41 604 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 457 tons

Complement:
   759 - 988

Cost:
   £1,549 million / $6,196 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 846 tons, 4,8%
   Armour: 6 046 tons, 34,6%
      - Belts: 3 148 tons, 18,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 653 tons, 3,7%
      - Armament: 981 tons, 5,6%
      - Armour Deck: 1 105 tons, 6,3%
      - Conning Tower: 160 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2 148 tons, 12,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 975 tons, 34,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 133 tons, 12,2%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20 146 lbs / 9 138 Kg = 29,5 x 11,1 " / 282 mm shells or 3,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 16,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 64 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,551
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,60 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (27%):   24,50 ft / 7,47 m
      - Mid (30%):      24,50 ft / 7,47 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,25 ft / 5,87 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 111,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123,3%
   Waterplane Area: 29 863 Square feet or 2 774 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 133 lbs/sq ft or 650 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,47
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!

Borys

The Speedy Gonzalez!
28 knots and 5x2x9,2" guns!

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912 (Engine 1914)

Displacement:
   15 707 t light; 16 486 t standard; 17 868 t normal; 18 973 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570,54 ft / 570,00 ft x 78,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   173,90 m / 173,74 m x 23,77 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns (3x2 guns), 425,00lbs / 192,78kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns (2x2 guns), 425,00lbs / 192,78kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 5 450 lbs / 2 472 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   380,00 ft / 115,82 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   150,00 ft / 45,72 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
     40,00 ft / 12,19 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   380,00 ft / 115,82 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 103% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   380,00 ft / 115,82 m   28,00 ft / 8,53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,00" / 229 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 12 shafts, 76 123 shp / 56 787 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 487 tons

Complement:
   772 - 1 004

Cost:
   £1,505 million / $6,021 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 649 tons, 3,6%
   Armour: 5 628 tons, 31,5%
      - Belts: 2 930 tons, 16,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 591 tons, 3,3%
      - Armament: 822 tons, 4,6%
      - Armour Deck: 1 138 tons, 6,4%
      - Conning Tower: 147 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 2 932 tons, 16,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 148 tons, 34,4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 160 tons, 12,1%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19 794 lbs / 8 978 Kg = 50,8 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 3,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 16,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,541
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,31 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (27%):   24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Mid (35%):      24,00 ft / 7,32 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,56 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 116,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130,0%
   Waterplane Area: 30 768 Square feet or 2 858 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 657 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,52
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!

Korpen

Quote from: Borys on May 29, 2008, 03:08:21 AM
The Speedy Gonzalez!
28 knots and 5x2x9,2" guns!

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912 (Engine 1914)
Did you not switch the years around on laid down and engine year?
Card-carrying member of the Battlecruiser Fan Club.

Borys

Seems I did ... :(

If the dates are corrected and the speed is cut to 27,5 knots, things stay more or less the same.
But 28 knots is still possible:
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   16 434 t light; 17 239 t standard; 18 784 t normal; 20 020 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570,54 ft / 570,00 ft x 82,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   173,90 m / 173,74 m x 24,99 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      6 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns (3x2 guns), 425,00lbs / 192,78kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 9,20" / 234 mm guns (2x2 guns), 425,00lbs / 192,78kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 5 546 lbs / 2 516 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7,00" / 178 mm   445,00 ft / 135,64 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   125,00 ft / 38,10 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   445,00 ft / 135,64 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 120% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   445,00 ft / 135,64 m   28,00 ft / 8,53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,00" / 229 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      8,00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10,00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 12 shafts, 79 152 shp / 59 048 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 9 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 782 tons

Complement:
   801 - 1 042

Cost:
   £1,988 million / $7,952 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 649 tons, 3,5%
   Armour: 5 868 tons, 31,2%
      - Belts: 3 005 tons, 16,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 692 tons, 3,7%
      - Armament: 822 tons, 4,4%
      - Armour Deck: 1 197 tons, 6,4%
      - Conning Tower: 152 tons, 0,8%
   Machinery: 3 156 tons, 16,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 411 tons, 34,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 351 tons, 12,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20 914 lbs / 9 486 Kg = 53,7 x 9,2 " / 234 mm shells or 3,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 4,5 ft / 1,4 m
   Roll period: 16,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,541
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31,00 ft / 9,45 m
      - Forecastle (27%):   24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Mid (35%):      24,00 ft / 7,32 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,56 ft / 5,96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114,6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,7%
   Waterplane Area: 32 346 Square feet or 3 005 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 667 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,53
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!

Borys

The NUSA vdT corrected - now she will rule the South Atlantic :)

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   15 523 t light; 16 293 t standard; 17 625 t normal; 18 691 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570,52 ft / 570,00 ft x 75,00 ft x 26,00 ft (normal load)
   173,90 m / 173,74 m x 22,86 m  x 7,92 m

Armament:
      4 - 11,10" / 282 mm guns (2x2 guns), 650,00lbs / 294,84kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 11,10" / 282 mm guns (2x2 guns), 650,00lbs / 294,84kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 6 400 lbs / 2 903 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   150,00 ft / 45,72 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 113% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   420,00 ft / 128,02 m   28,00 ft / 8,53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4,00" / 102 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 12 shafts, 56 109 shp / 41 857 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 398 tons

Complement:
   764 - 994

Cost:
   £1,994 million / $7,977 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 846 tons, 4,8%
   Armour: 5 890 tons, 33,4%
      - Belts: 3 149 tons, 17,9%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 653 tons, 3,7%
      - Armament: 819 tons, 4,6%
      - Armour Deck: 1 109 tons, 6,3%
      - Conning Tower: 161 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2 237 tons, 12,7%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 199 tons, 35,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 103 tons, 11,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20 185 lbs / 9 156 Kg = 29,5 x 11,1 " / 282 mm shells or 3,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 15,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 66 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,58
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7,60 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (27%):   25,00 ft / 7,62 m
      - Mid (35%):      17,00 ft / 5,18 m (16,00 ft / 4,88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,37 ft / 5,90 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124,8%
   Waterplane Area: 29 975 Square feet or 2 785 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 671 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,54
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!

Jefgte

Interresting Borys

Just a question

What is better ?
1x16000t BC or 2x8000t AC ...with the same speed


Jef  ;)
"You French are fighting for money, while we English are fighting for honor!"
"Everyone is fighting for what they miss. "
Surcouf

Korpen

Quote from: Jefgte on May 29, 2008, 04:00:59 AM
Interresting Borys

Just a question

What is better ?
1x16000t BC or 2x8000t AC ...with the same speed

Usually, one 16kton ship, as that is a far more flexible and capable ship that have allot fewer threats. A pair of 8kton fast ships up against anything larger basically only have the option to die.

Could mention that slotting in 1912 engines in a Willem Janszson-class frigate would give her a speed of 26,6, and no other modifications needed. Think such a ship would be more better then Borys designs by virtue of larger guns.

That said, I begin to suspec we generally have far to little deck armour on many designs, as it seems most Pre-dreads had more then one armoured deck.
Card-carrying member of the Battlecruiser Fan Club.

Sachmle

Quote from: Borys on May 29, 2008, 03:08:21 AM
The Speedy Gonzalez!

Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

Direct drive, 12 shafts

Borys, were you up a little late working on this one, or too early?

"All treaties between great states cease to be binding when they come in conflict with the struggle for existence."
Otto von Bismarck

"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
Kaiser Wilhelm

"If stupidity were painfull I would be deaf from all the screaming." Sam A. Grim

Sachmle

Quote from: Korpen on May 29, 2008, 04:19:16 AM
That said, I begin to suspec we generally have far to little deck armour on many designs, as it seems most Pre-dreads had more then one armoured deck.

RL or Nverse Pre-Dreads?
"All treaties between great states cease to be binding when they come in conflict with the struggle for existence."
Otto von Bismarck

"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
Kaiser Wilhelm

"If stupidity were painfull I would be deaf from all the screaming." Sam A. Grim

Borys

Your frigate is an excellent design, no doubt. This is why I'd go with a 18000 tonnes ship:


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   17 902 t light; 18 785 t standard; 20 239 t normal; 21 403 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   570,52 ft / 570,00 ft x 88,00 ft x 25,40 ft (normal load)
   173,90 m / 173,74 m x 26,82 m  x 7,74 m

Armament:
      6 - 13,50" / 343 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1 250,00lbs / 566,99kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room

Either a straightforward design:
MG - topmast and superstructre - stack - MG - mainmast and  superstructre - MG
or like the Tiger
MG - topmast and superstructre - stack - MG - large flat space - MG

      8 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1914 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 7 756 lbs / 3 518 kg

In the first case these would be arranged in pairs along the two superstructures, in the second - bunched along the fore superstructures. Still, the weight is so negligible that four guns or six guns can be put on top of the MG turrets.

   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,00" / 203 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Ends:   3,00" / 76 mm   170,00 ft / 51,82 m   14,00 ft / 4,27 m
   Upper:   6,00" / 152 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   9,00 ft / 2,74 m
     Main Belt covers 108% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,50" / 38 mm   400,00 ft / 121,92 m   41,40 ft / 12,62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11,0" / 279 mm   5,00" / 127 mm      10,0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11,00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 12 shafts, 62 688 shp / 46 765 Kw = 26,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 618 tons

Complement:
   847 - 1 102

Cost:
   £2,263 million / $9,054 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 955 tons, 4,7%
   Armour: 6 693 tons, 33,1%
      - Belts: 3 106 tons, 15,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 919 tons, 4,5%
      - Armament: 1 189 tons, 5,9%
      - Armour Deck: 1 303 tons, 6,4%
      - Conning Tower: 176 tons, 0,9%
   Machinery: 2 500 tons, 12,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7 405 tons, 36,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 337 tons, 11,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1,7%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     24 078 lbs / 10 922 Kg = 19,6 x 13,5 " / 343 mm shells or 4,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 5,0 ft / 1,5 m
   Roll period: 16,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,556
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 1,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30,00 ft / 9,14 m
      - Forecastle (27%):   25,00 ft / 7,62 m
      - Mid (35%):      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Quarterdeck (16%):   16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Stern:      16,00 ft / 4,88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19,33 ft / 5,89 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104,3%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131,7%
   Waterplane Area: 35 204 Square feet or 3 271 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 738 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,52
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!

Korpen

Quote from: Sachmle on May 29, 2008, 04:58:26 AM
Quote from: Korpen on May 29, 2008, 04:19:16 AM
That said, I begin to suspec we generally have far to little deck armour on many designs, as it seems most Pre-dreads had more then one armoured deck.

RL or Nverse Pre-Dreads?
The ones in real life.
50+30 does not seem rare when looking the russian ships: http://www.gwpda.org/naval/irnprds.htm
Card-carrying member of the Battlecruiser Fan Club.

Borys

Quote from: Sachmle on May 29, 2008, 04:55:19 AM
Quote from: Borys on May 29, 2008, 03:08:21 AM
The Speedy Gonzalez!

Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

Direct drive, 12 shafts

Borys, were you up a little late working on this one, or too early?
Too early, I think :)
The first warning comes from fiddling with the design, and probably represents the barbette sticking out - GASP - 3 feet outside the citadel :)
At most 20-30 feet.

The second one is sheer slopiness :D

Borys
NEDS - Not Enough Deck Space for all those guns and torpedos;
Bambi must DIE!