New Zion Destroyer

[Desertfox]

@ Korpen, Only reason to fire dead aft is in case of a stern chase, in such a case I figure the rear gun would be inoperable anyway. But I can raise it anyway.

@ Rocky, Better to have something I don't need than need something I don't have. These ships will be operating near mined waters, the paravanes are there for safety not for sweeping.

@ Borys, Fortunately, unlike my NS designs, these ships won't be going very far. Theorically these ships can be out for 12 days, in practice half of that would be a long time.

[Desertfox]

This is extremly weird, I have no idea what I did. I was just doing minor changes but suddenly I got a whole pack of extra hull strength.

Here are the results:

First I managed to stuff an extra 3 knots with only 20 extra tons.

Lavi II, New Zion Destroyer laid down 1912

Displacement:
   750 t light; 820 t standard; 882 t normal; 932 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   330.00 ft / 330.00 ft x 30.00 ft x 7.70 ft (normal load)
   100.58 m / 100.58 m x 9.14 m  x 2.35 m

Armament:
      3 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 336 lbs / 152 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 17,456 shp / 13,022 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 1,300nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 112 tons

Complement:
   80 - 105

Cost:
   £0.116 million / $0.463 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 42 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 386 tons, 43.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 248 tons, 28.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 14.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 7.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     189 lbs / 86 Kg = 3.0 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 12.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.79

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.405
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.17 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 88
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Mid (40 %):      13.00 ft / 3.96 m (7.50 ft / 2.29 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Stern:      7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.10 ft / 3.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 189.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 6,112 Square feet or 568 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 128 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.69
      - Overall: 0.52
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather



***

Dropping tonnnage while keeping speed at 27 gave me this.

Lavi II, New Zion Destroyer laid down 1912

Displacement:
   600 t light; 664 t standard; 719 t normal; 763 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   310.00 ft / 310.00 ft x 29.00 ft x 7.00 ft (normal load)
   94.49 m / 94.49 m x 8.84 m  x 2.13 m

Armament:
      3 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 336 lbs / 152 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 10,285 shp / 7,672 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 1,300nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 99 tons

Complement:
   69 - 90

Cost:
   £0.092 million / $0.370 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 42 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 258 tons, 35.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 221 tons, 30.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 119 tons, 16.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 75 tons, 10.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     207 lbs / 94 Kg = 3.3 x 5.0 " / 127 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 11.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.69 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 71
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Mid (40 %):      13.00 ft / 3.96 m (7.50 ft / 2.29 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Stern:      7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.10 ft / 3.08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 174.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,534 Square feet or 514 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 125 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 0.83
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Desertfox]

And a pic of the first design. The one above is Rocky's N-class. Used it for comparision since Rocky uses the same scale as I do.

[Desertfox]

No comment? A ny idea why suddenly SS2 is acting screwy? Not that I'm complaining...

[P3D]

No comment? A ny idea why suddenly SS2 is acting screwy? Not that I'm complaining...

Low freeboard. I'd also note that the raised forecastle with 5.5' deck height does not make sense at all.

[Desertfox]

Can't be. The change in average freeboard (0.4 ft) between the first and second designs was not drastic enough for the change in hull strength.

[Korpen]

No comment? A ny idea why suddenly SS2 is acting screwy? Not that I'm complaining...

Nothing wrong with SS2, you have removed the hoists in the mounts (or rather, you had added hoists initally).

[Desertfox]

AH! Ok. I knew something had changed, but couldn't figure out what. Mount & Hoist go under, Hull, fittings & equipment, not Armament, which is why I was looking in the wrong place.

Now the question is, What's more useful? The hoists or the 3 extra knots? I'm leaning towards the speed as DKB GTBs tends to be pretty fast.

[Korpen]

AH! Ok. I knew something had changed, but couldn't figure out what. Mount & Hoist go under, Hull, fittings & equipment, not Armament, which is why I was looking in the wrong place.

Now the question is, What's more useful? The hoists or the 3 extra knots? I'm leaning towards the speed as DKB GTBs tends to be pretty fast.

The speed, such a ship is not likley to survive in fight long enogh to use up all the ready ammunition anyway. ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

How much slower will rate of fire be with ammo lockers rather than hoists?

The 27 knots is not fast enough to catch/evade DKB GTBS, and it's slower than a number of DKB KKs as well. 

[Korpen]

How much slower will rate of fire be with ammo lockers rather than hoists?

Not at all as long as you are using the ready ammunition from the lockers. It will drop significantly when the ready ammo is used up as the transfer speed to the gun is much slower when the ship does not have mechanical hoists but have to send up shells and charges by hand.
However, if the ship does not have any armour for the magazines, there is little reason for not having quite a high % (25-40% depending on the loadout) of the shells in the ready lockers, as there is not huge increase in the their vulnerability while the offensive power is much better. 

[Jefgte]

5x127 (Mount & Hoist)+6x50+6TLTx508 & 30kts...

Thats certainly too much for 750t hull in 1912
-------------
Nice look for DD Rocky drawing with 4x127


Jef  ;)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I know, Jefgte - I'm always surprised how undergunned my designs look ...
Nothing wll make me believe that
5x127 (Mount & Hoist)+6x50+6TLTx508 & 30kts...
is possible on a 750 tonnes hull. Or even 600 tonnes at 27 knots.
There isn't enough space to swing the wing 5 inchers about.
But if SS - the core of this game - allows it ...  it is a tough call to ban stuff which SS says works.

Borys

[Jefgte]

Rocky drawing give the same boardside with 4x127.


Jef  ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

The Gran Colombian N-Class destroyers have 5 x 3", not 5".  They're modelled on some historical USN designs of around the same time.