1909 Brandenburg GK

[swamphen]

Barring unforseen circumstances, the design for GK09 has now been frozen.

SMS Moltke
SMS Goeben

GK09 (Anton), Brandenburgian Großer Kreuzer laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,994 t light; 10,444 t standard; 11,347 t normal; 12,068 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   562.99 ft / 557.74 ft x 68.90 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   171.60 m / 170.00 m x 21.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.45" / 240 mm guns (2x3 guns), 418.88lbs / 190.00kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
     12 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 2,975 lbs / 1,350 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130

   1 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes
   2 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      5.91" / 150 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:      1.97" / 50 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Upper:      1.97" / 50 mm   262.47 ft / 80.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      7.87" / 200 mm   4.92" / 125 mm      5.91" / 150 mm
   2nd:      1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:      0.79" / 20 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 3.15" / 80 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 26.81 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 1,624 tons)

Complement:
   549 - 714

Cost:
   £0.969 million / $3.878 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 374 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 2,854 tons, 25.2 %
      - Belts: 1,373 tons, 12.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 493 tons, 4.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 954 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 34 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 19.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,229 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,353 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 355 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,344 lbs / 6,053 Kg = 31.6 x 9.4 " / 240 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         22.47 ft / 6.85 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      17.55 ft / 5.35 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Stern:         15.09 ft / 4.60 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.35 ft / 4.98 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 140.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,199 Square feet or 2,434 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 555 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.13
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[P3D]

I suggest Rocky to redesign this ship to fit the drydocks.

[The Rock Doctor]

Barring unforseen circumstances, the design for GK09 has now been frozen.

Orange's Furies, the rise of Italian and Maorian naval power, and the all-round BP increase constitute such unforeseen circumstances.  The Moltke class have increased in size and capability, and are now rated as schlactkreuzers.

SK11, laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   15,270 t light; 15,873 t standard; 16,999 t normal; 17,900 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   595.64 ft / 590.55 ft x 78.74 ft x 24.61 ft (normal load)
   181.55 m / 180.00 m x 24.00 m  x 7.50 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.02" / 280 mm guns (3x2 guns), 669.80lbs / 303.82kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4,599 lbs / 2,086 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   344.49 ft / 105.00 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   246.03 ft / 74.99 m   11.81 ft / 3.60 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   360.89 ft / 110.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.45" / 240 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      9.45" / 240 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.56" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 9.45" / 240 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 72,000 shp / 53,712 Kw = 28.01 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,027 tons)

Complement:
   743 - 967

Cost:
   £1.419 million / $5.677 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 575 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 4,851 tons, 28.5 %
      - Belts: 2,089 tons, 12.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,134 tons, 6.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,494 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 135 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,871 tons, 16.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,535 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,730 tons, 10.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 438 tons, 2.6 %
-250 t:  Fire Control
-50 t:  Sehendes Auge
-25 t:  Markoni
-25 t:  Flag Accomodations
-25 t:  VIP Accomodoations
-20 t:  Torpedoes
-10 t:  Climitasation
-33 t:  Weight Reserve

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,382 lbs / 9,699 Kg = 31.9 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 3.8 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.520
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.30 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.87 ft / 8.80 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.93 ft / 7.60 m
      - Mid (55 %):      24.93 ft / 7.60 m (17.06 ft / 5.20 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Stern:      17.06 ft / 5.20 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.71 ft / 6.62 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,556 Square feet or 2,932 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 674 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Korpen]

Barring unforseen circumstances, the design for GK09 has now been frozen.

Orange's Furies, the rise of Italian and Maorian naval power, and the all-round BP increase constitute such unforeseen circumstances.  The Moltke class have increased in size and capability, and are now rated as schlactkreuzers.

SK11, laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)

A bit light on the firepower (for her size) for my taste.
But otherwise not a bad ship, definatly usefull for independent actions.

[The Rock Doctor]

It was not the highest priority for the design, but I think it's adequate for the job of breaking cruisers.

[Ithekro]

Remember German thinking.  Higher rate of fire with superior shells is greater than heavier, slower, inferior shells.

[P3D]

This ship is 50% larger than the previous design. For breaking cruisers imho you need more and smaller guns, or two more 11"s. Against the Maori fleet you need more Scharnhorsts, against the Italian fleet (with a lot of 8" cruisers) rather the 10,000t design. And there's the dock size issue.

BTW, what inferior shells? Irrelevant in N-verse context.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Maybe 4x2x24cm?

Or cutting speed down to 27 knots and/or deck to 2 inches would alow for 4x2x11/12"?
Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Maybe 4x2x24cm?

Or cutting speed down to 27 knots and/or deck to 2 inches would alow for 4x2x11/12"?
Borys

I think that it would be a bad idea to reduce speed, firepower or deck armour. If anything were to be scrificed i would go for some of the seakeeping, lowering the freeboard a bit could allow for a forth turret to be fitted. Making her a tiny bit larger (16kton) would help as well.
See below (had a design from one of my own projects).

Remember German thinking.  Higher rate of fire with superior shells is greater than heavier, slower, inferior shells.

Hu? That makes no sense. If talking IRL, the ships with the higest ROF were the brittish ones (read: the battlecruisers), and everyone tried to make as good shells as possible.

Food for thought:

Design 1042, Kingdom Trade protection sloop laid down 1912

Displacement:
   15 650 t light; 16 375 t standard; 17 730 t normal; 18 814 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   623,36 ft / 623,36 ft x 75,46 ft x 25,59 ft (normal load)
   190,00 m / 190,00 m x 23,00 m  x 7,80 m

Armament:
      8 - 11,02" / 280 mm guns (4x2 guns), 669,80lbs / 303,81kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 4,13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35,32lbs / 16,02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 5 924 lbs / 2 687 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 110
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8,27" / 210 mm   360,89 ft / 110,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   2,95" / 75 mm   262,47 ft / 80,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Upper:   2,95" / 75 mm   360,89 ft / 110,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
     Main Belt covers 89 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9,84" / 250 mm   4,72" / 120 mm      8,27" / 210 mm
   2nd:   1,77" / 45 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2,56" / 65 mm, Conning tower: 9,84" / 250 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 71 241 shp / 53 146 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 440 tons

Complement:
   767 - 998

Cost:
   £1,567 million / $6,270 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 740 tons, 4,2 %
   Armour: 5 256 tons, 29,6 %
      - Belts: 2 433 tons, 13,7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 1 174 tons, 6,6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1 505 tons, 8,5 %
      - Conning Tower: 144 tons, 0,8 %
   Machinery: 2 841 tons, 16,0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 468 tons, 36,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 080 tons, 11,7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 345 tons, 1,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20 043 lbs / 9 091 Kg = 29,9 x 11,0 " / 280 mm shells or 2,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 16,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0,516
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,26 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24,97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21,33 ft / 6,50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19,69 ft / 6,00 m (18,04 ft / 5,50 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,44 ft / 5,32 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127,0 %
   Waterplane Area: 31 790 Square feet or 2 953 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 138 lbs/sq ft or 674 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 1,19
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[The Rock Doctor]

Swampy's GK design was outclassed in all respects by the Orange CAs, the new Swiss CA Constellation, and incapable of defeating Maori midweights.  I believe a 15,000 t design that can probably address all of these threats is a better investment than a 10,000 design that clearly can't.

The heavier guns, and the heavy deck armor, are borrowing from Dutch thinking in this case:  Hit heavy, from a distance.

Dock size is an issue, and will be addressed over the coming years if I am continuing to catch-up DKB.  DKB's hardly alone in this - anybody wanting a certain combination of speed and size will also have to scale-up their infrastructure to accommodate this.

[Valles]

My point cruiser skippers tell me that they think that either of the newer versions would be 'entirely too goddamned entertaining'.

Out of character, that's a compliment. ^_^

[The Rock Doctor]

Their comments will warm Admiral Letters' heart!