UNK Light BB

[Blooded]

Hello,

I have come to the realization that rebuilding the old Predreds is sucking up too many resources(unfortunately I have spent many resources and they have already been modernized). I set about coming up with a very cheap 'modern' replacement. Target was 12,000 tons so that it could be in service in two years(12kt+9 months+3month commision=24 months).

With my nags on 'can it fit' I wanted to get some opinions. I started to draw it up using a 'kongo' style drawing and my failed 'glory rebuild' to make it a little quicker. i haven't added the third Screw yet. Armor has changed a bit since this drawing. Need to find room for more ships boats, etc.

Using Texas as a size comparison(minus the rear turrets and extra hull from mid turret) would suggest that 3 14" twins could fit in around a 440' hull, this is at 420'.

The theory seems valid(in SS2) but I still can't believe it would work. Freeboard is very low but because she is slow it still has good seakeeping. She is a bit cramped(80%) but not extremely so. Armor is poor in belt width but somewhat thick. The bulge should use 1" of the 2.5" TDS. Top speed is low but with a high cruise she should be able to get around OK.

I plan on trying out a SS3 version, but what are your initial thoughts?

BTW, what would a 1905 Radar/Tuba look like? Any links?



Defiant Class, United Kingdom of America Battleship laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   12,657 t light; 13,344 t standard; 14,285 t normal; 15,038 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   422.47 ft / 420.00 ft x 70.00 ft (Bulges 80.00 ft) x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   128.77 m / 128.02 m x 21.34 m (Bulges 24.38 m)  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,586.00lbs / 719.40kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all aft
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.30lbs / 1.50kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 10,159 lbs / 4,608 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 70

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   283.00 ft / 86.26 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   137.00 ft / 41.76 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   283.00 ft / 86.26 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.50" / 64 mm   298.00 ft / 90.83 m   36.50 ft / 11.13 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      8.25" / 210 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 3 shafts, 13,923 shp / 10,387 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 3,600nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,694 tons

Complement:
   653 - 849

Cost:
   £1.466 million / $5.865 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,126 tons, 7.9 %
   Armour: 5,346 tons, 37.4 %
      - Belts: 1,917 tons, 13.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,006 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armament: 1,056 tons, 7.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,216 tons, 8.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 152 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 555 tons, 3.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,294 tons, 37.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,628 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 336 tons, 2.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,641 lbs / 7,095 Kg = 11.4 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 18.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.620
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   12.50 ft / 3.81 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.50 ft / 3.81 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.50 ft / 3.81 m
      - Stern:      12.50 ft / 3.81 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.62 ft / 3.85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 79.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,907 Square feet or 2,035 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 90 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 822 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.72
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

Cost: $14.74   12.678BP  21.7 Months
Misc. Weight(356 Tons):
250 Tons Fire Control Equipment
50 Huelsmeyer Radar
25 Tons Wireless Set and Aerials

[Korpen]

BTW, what would a 1905 Radar/Tuba look like? Any links?

http://www.radarworld.org/huelsmeyer.html
The device itself weight something like 30kg, excluding power source. Its detection range is somthing like 3km, maybe as much as five if the ones we got is more refined. So unless in a foggy nights the detection range is less the the optical range, and i think the wartubas got even shorther range, and they are much more dependent on conditions.

[Carthaginian]

A nice little ship. Lots of bang for the buck, and not many bucks spent on them.

[miketr]

Its a nice design but its without a doubt a coastal defence ship.  Speed is very low for a modern unit.  You could build two larger faster ships for three of these, 20 or 21 knots should be possible on 20,000 tons light and 4x2 14" gun.

Michael

[maddox]

18kts is main battle line combat speed. But that means clean hull and machines in optimum condition for this vessel.

The main disadvantage is the lack of range and no staying power.  These ships are nice to work in packs, but if only supported by light units, the bigger equaly supported adversaries will keep in the fight long after these little bruisers are send to the bottom.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think the hull is too narrow, and too sharp (low BC) to handle twin 14" turrets.  Check out historical 14" ships to compare their beams.

The cramped upperworks are evident from the difficulty you seem to have in placing cranes and ship's boats. 

The low freeboard would limit her ocean-going ability; in the North Atlantic, she'd probably take a lot of water over the bow, and that would affect her gunnery.  Still, it might work as a CDBB or as a station flagship in a more distant UNK colony.  I don't see a lot of merit for it in your primary waters, particularly when you have the resoures to build more conventional dreadnoughts.

On the plus side - while the drawing is incomplete, the quality of what is there is quite good.

[Blooded]

Hello,

What do you think would work for the beam I have redesigned it a few times. Aiming towards 2 twin 14" this go around. 80'? The turrets only take 35' max, but how much space around them is needed is beyond me. I can't seem to find any historical small bbs with guns over 12"(predred style). Probably because it's a bad idea.  ;D


Thanks

[The Rock Doctor]

Furious was eighty feet, with fifteen inch guns, but she was long enough that the turrets were well back from the bow and the beam was close to max at the barbette locations.

On a ship like this, I think you'd want around ninety feet and a high BC, so that the beam at the barbette location is around seventy feet.  I think the rule of thumb is that beam at the barbette should be twice the barbette diameter, but don't ask me where I read that.

[Ithekro]

Actually Furious had a 18 inch gun (single mount turret, aft) on completion.  Glorious and Couragious had 15 inch guns before being taken over to become aircraft carriers like Furious did.

[The Rock Doctor]

D'oh...

[Blooded]

Hello,

I have been looking around a bit and came across Hyuga(Fuso and Kongo have similar front ends) after reconstruction. Doing some pixel counting the turret seems to be 32', the deck is at 54' wide(at the front turret) and around 70' at waterline(after she was bulged). The front turret is located 128' back from the front end at waterline.

Doing a guesstimate for the BC with SS I get .612(before remodeling). Widest point 94' before(111' after). WL length 675' before(700' after).

My latest version of Defiant has the front twin 112' from the bow waterline. A BC of .65 and width at 80' max. Am I getting closer? Man this is confusing.

Thanks for all the input thus far.

[Blooded]

Hello,

Here is the latest.




Defiant Class, United Kingdom of America Battleship laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   12,097 t light; 12,686 t standard; 13,669 t normal; 14,454 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   403.17 ft / 400.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   122.89 m / 121.92 m x 24.38 m  x 7.01 m

Armament:
      4 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,586.00lbs / 719.40kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all aft
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.30lbs / 1.50kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 6,961 lbs / 3,158 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   237.50 ft / 72.39 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   162.50 ft / 49.53 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   237.50 ft / 72.39 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.00" / 76 mm   237.50 ft / 72.39 m   28.00 ft / 8.53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      10.5" / 267 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 3 shafts, 14,028 shp / 10,465 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 5,104nm at 13.40 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,768 tons

Complement:
   631 - 821

Cost:
   £1.156 million / $4.625 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 779 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 5,459 tons, 39.9 %
      - Belts: 2,226 tons, 16.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 738 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armament: 986 tons, 7.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,361 tons, 10.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 148 tons, 1.1 %
   Machinery: 559 tons, 4.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,000 tons, 36.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,571 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     21,480 lbs / 9,743 Kg = 15.7 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.61
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.36

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.650
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -4.00 ft / -1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forecastle (23 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.28 ft / 4.66 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,514 Square feet or 2,277 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 153 lbs/sq ft or 747 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.31
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Cost: $11.56   12.097BP  21.1 Months
Misc. Weight(300 Tons):
250 Tons Fire Control Equipment
25 Huelsmeyer Radar
25 Tons Wireless Set and Aerials

[Korpen]

Hello,

Here is the latest.




Defiant Class, United Kingdom of America Battleship laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   12,097 t light; 12,686 t standard; 13,669 t normal; 14,454 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   403.17 ft / 400.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   122.89 m / 121.92 m x 24.38 m  x 7.01 m

Cost: $11.56   12.097BP  21.1 Months
Misc. Weight(300 Tons):
250 Tons Fire Control Equipment
25 Huelsmeyer Radar
25 Tons Wireless Set and Aerials

Love the Drawing! :)
If you could cut her length by just 2m she will fit into a type 1 dock, might be worth considering.

But the main question i have about her is: Why?
The ship is in effect, little more the a brand new pre-dreadnought (and she is a very nice pre-dred). Two dreadnoughts carry more guns at higer speed the three of these ships, and at the same total displacement. So what is it you feel they add that the larger ships are lacking?

As a sidenote, might i suggest posting each design in the encyclopaedia in a separate post? It is much easier to find a design then, rather then carefully scrolling trogh a 6 designs long single post. :)

[Ithekro]

In Wesworld, Chile had the Americans build them this based of a similar designs of coastal defense ships for the US Navy that was 12" gun armed. (treaty limitations plus a large number of 12"/50 cal turrets lead to the American ships, the USS New York becoming a gunnery training shp lead to this ship).



Image by CanisD

Almirante Gideon

Chilean Coast Defense Battleship laid down 1927 (American design)

Displacement:
15,602 t light; 16,450 t standard; 16,954 t normal; 17,357 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
505.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
153.93 m / 152.40 m x 26.82 m x 6.71 m

Armament:
6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1911 Model
Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
10 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1911 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1927 Model
Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
Weight of broadside 8,992 lbs / 4,079 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 13.0" / 330 mm 283.00 ft / 86.26 m 11.06 ft / 3.37 m
Ends: Unarmoured
Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
3.00" / 76 mm 283.00 ft / 86.26 m 20.49 ft / 6.25 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 14.0" / 356 mm 6.00" / 152 mm 13.0" / 330 mm
2nd: 1.00" / 25 mm 1.00" / 25 mm -

- Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 26,632 shp / 19,868 Kw = 21.00 kts
Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 908 tons

Complement:
742 - 965

Cost:
£5.847 million / $23.388 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 1,124 tons, 6.6 %
Armour: 6,500 tons, 38.3 %
- Belts: 1,874 tons, 11.1 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 644 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 1,645 tons, 9.7 %
- Armour Deck: 2,109 tons, 12.4 %
- Conning Tower: 227 tons, 1.3 %
Machinery: 841 tons, 5.0 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,987 tons, 41.2 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,352 tons, 8.0 %
Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
24,158 lbs / 10,958 Kg = 17.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
Roll period: 17.2 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.613
Length to Beam Ratio: 5.68 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 16.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 17.45 ft / 5.32 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 16.00 ft / 4.88 m
- Mid (50 %): 15.65 ft / 4.77 m
- Quarterdeck (20 %): 15.65 ft / 4.77 m
- Stern: 15.65 ft / 4.77 m
- Average freeboard: 15.89 ft / 4.84 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 131.6 %
Waterplane Area: 32,573 Square feet or 3,026 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 812 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.95
- Longitudinal: 1.52
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Jefgte]

I like the concept & the drawing of the Defiant class


Jef  ;)