How much?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
So, what you be the cost of chaging this:
Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1902, engine design date 1885

Displacement:
   4 493 t light; 4 610 t standard; 4 912 t normal; 5 154 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,00 ft / 300,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 22,00 ft (normal load)
   91,44 m / 91,44 m x 15,24 m  x 6,71 m

Armament:
      4 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 29,60lbs / 13,43kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 12,49lbs / 5,67kg shells, 1885 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1,10" / 27,9 mm guns in single mounts, 0,62lbs / 0,28kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 197 lbs / 89 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 14,0" / 355,6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   5,00 ft / 1,52 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   2,00" / 51 mm            -
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12 254 ihp / 9 141 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 9,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 544 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   293 - 381

Cost:
   £0,510 million / $2,042 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 25 tons, 0,5%
   Armour: 781 tons, 15,9%
      - Belts: 346 tons, 7,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3,8%
      - Armament: 49 tons, 1,0%
      - Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3,8%
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 2 375 tons, 48,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 263 tons, 25,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 419 tons, 8,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1 899 lbs / 861 Kg = 64,2 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,61
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 10,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Stern:      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,62 ft / 3,85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 268,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70,4%
   Waterplane Area: 10 189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 375 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,42
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


To this:


Displacement:
   4 962 t light; 5 179 t standard; 5 502 t normal; 5 760 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,00 ft / 300,00 ft x 50,00 ft (Bulges 56,00 ft) x 22,00 ft (normal load)
   91,44 m / 91,44 m x 15,24 m (Bulges 17,07 m)  x 6,71 m

Armament:
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 800 lbs / 363 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   5,00 ft / 1,52 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,00" / 25 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 355 ihp / 9 963 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 9,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 580 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   319 - 415

Cost:
   £0,628 million / $2,511 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 108 tons, 2,0%
   Armour: 761 tons, 13,8%
      - Belts: 346 tons, 6,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3,4%
      - Armament: 28 tons, 0,5%
      - Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3,4%
      - Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2%
   Machinery: 2 596 tons, 47,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 438 tons, 26,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 539 tons, 9,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 60 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1 891 lbs / 858 Kg = 18,9 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,69
   Metacentric height 4,2 ft / 1,3 m
   Roll period: 11,5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Stern:      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,62 ft / 3,85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 282,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 63,8%
   Waterplane Area: 10 189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 80%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 417 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,47
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I changed the armament:
Armament: 108 tons, 2,0%

I buldged the hull:
was - Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 263 tons, 25,7%
is -     Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 438 tons, 26,1%

All the rest stays the same, I even used deck mounts as to limit intrusion into structure.
So, some 250-300 tonnes plus labour - how much does that set me back
I will cheefully throw in the 10% "overhaul" cost.
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Why would you install bulges and a torpedo bulkhead on something that small/narrow?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I inherited that ship, hence the Torpedo Bulkhead. Ask Battleofthepyramids what purpose did he see in it.
The buldges are to keep the ship stable after I add topweight, the eight six inchers. Or maybe 16 guns of 4,5-5 inch calibre.
These are quite new ships, and I am trying to salvage ANY use out of them. Gunboats for the Med. I could re-engine them. Sim in a moment. But that would cost real money, I'm afraid.
Borys

Borys

[Borys]

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1902 (Engine 1908)

Displacement:
   3 966 t light; 4 188 t standard; 4 912 t normal; 5 492 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,00 ft / 300,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 22,00 ft (normal load)
   91,44 m / 91,44 m x 15,24 m  x 6,71 m

Armament:
      4 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1902 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      12 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 35,00lbs / 15,88kg shells, 1902 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1902 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 820 lbs / 372 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 240
   4 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11 670 ihp / 8 706 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 12 000nm at 9,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 304 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   293 - 381

Cost:
   £0,373 million / $1,492 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 102 tons, 2,1%
   Armour: 808 tons, 16,4%
      - Belts: 408 tons, 8,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3,8%
      - Armament: 14 tons, 0,3%
      - Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3,8%
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 1 061 tons, 21,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 736 tons, 35,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 946 tons, 19,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 260 tons, 5,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5 189 lbs / 2 354 Kg = 48,0 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,32
   Metacentric height 2,9 ft / 0,9 m
   Roll period: 12,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 58 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,12
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Stern:      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,62 ft / 3,85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 155,8%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69,4%
   Waterplane Area: 10 189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 123%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 106 lbs/sq ft or 516 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,38
      - Longitudinal: 3,91
      - Overall: 1,53
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped


So now the changes are sans buldges, but
Machinery: 1 061 tons, 21,6%1
plus the 100 tonnes for guns
plus let me be generous and throw in 140 tonnes for deck strenghtening.
1400 tonnes. Out of a total of 4000 tonnes.
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Given how bizarre the sim is - the engines and the TB - I'd propose to the board at large that you be able to:

-revise engine year to 1902
-delete the torpedo bulkhead

...without penalty or cost. 

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I forgot the refitting/modernisation ruiles were suspended after the last row.
A new version was concocted, but was put on the backburner, waiting for 1912. But it seems that they're needed ASAP.
It would be a rebuild, i.e. 20% of total cost, plus BP and $ for the new things.
So, the "buldges and new guns" version would cost me 0,8$ for messing around with the ship, and 0,3BP and 0,3$ for the guns and buldges.
1,1$ and 0,3BP per ship. Is a gunboat, with 3000 nm range, 8 6" guns, and 2" armour worth it?
Borys

[Borys]

The planned rules:


OVERHAUL
To maintain combat effectiveness, every ten years the ship has to go through a checkup. This costs 10% of ship value, and requeries 3 months in Dry Dock for ships 6000 tonnes light or smaller. Larger vessels need to be drydocked for 6 months. This restores ship to "as good as new" status.

REFIT/MODERNISATION
A modernisation brings a ship up to date with contemporary technical standards or fashions of the day. Takes from 1 month (if simple job) up to 6 months - it is recommneded to combine it with an Overhaul.

Light displacement must stay the same.

Armour cannot be changed.

It is possible to divert miscelaneous weight to new ends, and gain weight for such reshuffling by removing items (weapons, external armour).

Refitting with FC costs $0,5 or $0,25 for destroyers, plus misc.weight of:
250 tonnes for battleships (over 15000 tonnes)
100 tonnes for cruisers
25  tonnes anything smaller than cruiser (under 2000 tonnes)

Refiting with radio requeries between 5 and 25 tonnes. FREE!


REBUILD/RECONSTRUCTION
A rebuild or reconstruction costs 20% of SS price. Plus 1$ per 1000 tonnes of changed or new components (can come from stocks or vanguarding).
Base hull doesn't change, this includes dimensions or BC. Barbettes are a structural point of the hull. Not to be touched.
Main guns can be exchanged to smaller calibers and if inside reason more barrels added; or upgunned (doing a Scharnhorst - both ways)
Armour lay out can be changed within reason. End Belts thinner, more Deck Armour, thicker or thinner.
Bulges can be added.

Requeries
18 months in Drydock for battleships (over 15000)
12 months for cruisers (2000-15000)
6 months - (under 2000)

***************************
Any GLARING problems with this?
Borys

[Carthaginian]

Excellent.
We like, We like!

[Korpen]

The planned rules:
Light displacement must stay the same.

Well, maybe i have a tiny problem with this.
I was looking at re-engine some old ships for use as long-range escorts, this results in significant changes to the light displacement as a half the weight of the old engine gets transformed into bunker.

[Carthaginian]

Korpen:

I don't think that re-engining will be covered under refit/modernization rules any longer, but rather under rebuild/reconstruction.

[Korpen]

Korpen:

I don't think that re-engining will be covered under refit/modernization rules any longer, but rather under rebuild/reconstruction.

Ok, i for some reson included the "no change to light" in all of it.

[Tanthalas]

I dont see a problem with it

[Borys]

Ahoj!
A problem I now see is that ships can become eternal.
Maybe an Overhaul would be possible only once, followed by a  Rebuild/Reconstruction each 10 years therafter?

Borys

[Carthaginian]

That sounds more like real life.
After the first 10 years, the ship can be 'updated' as demands haven't changed too much. By 20 years, though, the ship is starting to get not just outdated, but OLD. Things that people didn't think about when it was built are now reality, and you have to make some major alterations to work them in to do so.