Maori Type1911 Destroyer

[Valles]

Reconsidered one of my bigger reasons behind the boat-and-mothership role for the Support Cruisers.

In light of which, I based this off of the Confederate F-01s.

In Amber Clad, Maori Destroyer laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   500 t light; 515 t standard; 575 t normal; 624 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   295.26 ft / 288.71 ft x 26.25 ft x 6.56 ft (normal load)
   90.00 m / 88.00 m x 8.00 m  x 2.00 m

Armament:
      3 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      24 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (8x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 39 lbs / 18 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,223 shp / 6,880 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 108 tons

Complement:
   58 - 76

Cost:
   £0.061 million / $0.246 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 285 tons, 49.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 195 tons, 33.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 75 tons, 13.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 2.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     247 lbs / 112 Kg = 19.2 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.44
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.07
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.48

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.405
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.99 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.36 ft / 0.72 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Stern:      6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.75 ft / 3.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 118.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,678 Square feet or 435 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 64 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 22 lbs/sq ft or 106 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 1.72
      - Overall: 0.57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

10 tons short-range wireless
6 tons torpedoes

[Ithekro]

Why so many machine guns (or gatling I think) mounts?  That is four mounts per side plus what look like 13 pounders for the main anti-torpedo boat guns.

Single, twin, or triple torpedo mounts?

[Valles]

Torpedoes... twins are all I can do at the moment.

The 75mms are for larger (ie, destroyer) targets; I'm aware that they're really inadequate for the role, but I lack a gun heavier than them and smaller that 150mm cruiser guns. A plenitude of light guns is hoped to be enough to free them for that task and anyway it's not like torpedo-boats have armor, is it?

I have higher priorities for my research funds than new guns.

[Valles]

Had a 'Duh! I'm a moron!' moment and tried something else.

Hopefully will preserve the Maori's reputation as being supremely dangerous to other people's destroyers. ^_^

Downside is it's half-again as heavy. Something in the middle would be better... hmmm...

In Amber Clad, Maori Destroyer laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   743 t light; 794 t standard; 997 t normal; 1,160 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   295.26 ft / 288.71 ft x 26.25 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
   90.00 m / 88.00 m x 8.00 m  x 3.00 m

Armament:
      3 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      24 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (4x6 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 361 lbs / 164 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,465 shp / 10,045 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 365 tons

Complement:
   88 - 115

Cost:
   £0.122 million / $0.489 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 45 tons, 4.5 %
   Machinery: 418 tons, 41.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 258 tons, 25.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 254 tons, 25.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 22 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     297 lbs / 135 Kg = 2.9 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.50
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.29

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.468
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.99 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.36 ft / 0.72 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m (6.56 ft / 2.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Stern:      6.56 ft / 2.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.75 ft / 3.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 172.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 81.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,907 Square feet or 456 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 62 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 126 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.61
      - Overall: 0.56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

10 tons short-range wireless
6 tons torpedoes
6 tons torpedo tubes

[Carthaginian]

Now, THAT is a wicked vicious little can!

[Valles]

And if I drop down to four torpedoes it gives me an 'adequate' amount of crew space... good enough.

[The Rock Doctor]

I think the Maori would find the 150mm shells to be difficult to handle on a small, lively ship such as this, but it does preserve their reputation for heavily armed ships.

[Korpen]

Had a 'Duh! I'm a moron!' moment and tried something else.

Hopefully will preserve the Maori's reputation as being supremely dangerous to other people's destroyers. ^_^

Downside is it's half-again as heavy. Something in the middle would be better... hmmm...

In Amber Clad, Maori Destroyer laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   743 t light; 794 t standard; 997 t normal; 1,160 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   295.26 ft / 288.71 ft x 26.25 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
   90.00 m / 88.00 m x 8.00 m  x 3.00 m

Armament:
      3 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room

Why only three 15cm guns, it is possible to mount 5! ;)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 796 t standard; 926 t normal; 1 030 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   285,61 ft / 280,51 ft x 28,05 ft x 9,78 ft (normal load)
   87,05 m / 85,50 m x 8,55 m  x 2,98 m

Armament:
      5 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 496 lbs / 225 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15 002 shp / 11 192 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 4 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 234 tons

Complement:
   83 - 109

Cost:
   £0,133 million / $0,533 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 64 tons, 7,0 %
   Armour: 7 tons, 0,7 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 7 tons, 0,7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 379 tons, 40,9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 280 tons, 30,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 176 tons, 19,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2,2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     231 lbs / 105 Kg = 2,2 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,31
   Metacentric height 1,2 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,85
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,421
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19,03 ft / 5,80 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Mid (31 %):      17,06 ft / 5,20 m (9,19 ft / 2,80 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,78 ft / 3,59 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 185,5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 910 Square feet or 456 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 49 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 30 lbs/sq ft or 144 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,88
      - Overall: 0,57
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Carthaginian]

Why only three 15cm guns, it is possible to mount 5! ;)

Because... *drum roll*... his crew wishes to be able to MOVE!
:D

[Valles]

Indeed. Also, where would I put the 75s, then? Unless someone finds a gaping flaw, this'll likely be the final version - note the steadiness, put there to address Rock Doctor's point.

I'd much prefer a flush-deck design, really, but can't seem to get them to work as well.

ETA: Now with Picture!



In Amber Clad, Maori Destroyer laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 793 t standard; 995 t normal; 1,157 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   295.26 ft / 288.71 ft x 26.25 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
   90.00 m / 88.00 m x 8.00 m  x 3.00 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      24 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (8x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 258 lbs / 117 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 15.7" / 400 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,439 shp / 10,026 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 365 tons

Complement:
   88 - 115

Cost:
   £0.115 million / $0.460 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 32 tons, 3.2 %
   Machinery: 441 tons, 44.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 261 tons, 26.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 246 tons, 24.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     303 lbs / 137 Kg = 2.9 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.467
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.99 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 73
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.36 ft / 0.72 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m (7.55 ft / 2.30 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.55 ft / 2.30 m
      - Stern:      7.55 ft / 2.30 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.24 ft / 3.73 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 169.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 98.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,903 Square feet or 456 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 67 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 123 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.94
      - Overall: 0.58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

10 tons short-range wireless
4 tons torpedoes

[Ithekro]

Stacked twin torpedo mounts?  (well one over the other)  Does that work fuctionally?  The problem we've been having on thius end is that the person with the correct book lives in Sacramento, but the gaming group meets in San Francisco.  Thus last time we had an issue to discuss we had no good detailed information of destroyer equipment and who much something should weigh (or how it works kind of things).

[Carthaginian]

Try elevating the 75's and having both torp tubes at deck level... that's a bit more kosher. Will it work?

[Sachmle]

I dunno, I think the stacked would work, you just couldn't fire both at the same time.  I've seen cruisers w/ the torp mounts up high on the second deck, and they worked fine, IIRC, so this should as well.

[Valles]

I dunno, I think the stacked would work, you just couldn't fire both at the same time.  I've seen cruisers w/ the torp mounts up high on the second deck, and they worked fine, IIRC, so this should as well.

As well as ordinary deck mounts on ships with higher freeboards than a mere destroyer could ever have. The need for sequenced rather than unison fire might be potentially inconvenient, but it seems possible that Maori practice doesn't call for 'full broadsides' at all. And it certainly does save on deck-space.

Besides, it gives me a clear design element to base the idea of a 'Maori Style' destroyer around, which I find desirable. Too much anime, probably.

The follow-up class will probably have a single elevated 75 aft and an extended cabin rather than the 1911's twin low guns, but no other major changes are planned.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I have doubts as to the guns being able to fire directly to the sides.
You have 8m beam. At the widest point. Where the guns are the beam is what - 7m? 6m?
The end of the breech is about 1,5m from the centerline. The cartridge (good luck with bag charges on a 750 tonne boat) itself is almost a metre long.
For ease of handling it is nice to have another 1m or so.
IMO the loaders will be bum(p)ing into the railing quite often.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_59-45_tbts.htm

On this photo you see a puny 10,5cm gun:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s266/HelenBachaus/artillery/GermanNavalGunCrewinAction.jpg
But a nice illustration of the sort of space requeired to work the gun.

Borys