Italia 1911 (I decided to just put them all in one thread)

[Korpen]

I note that you still have not produced a convincing citation for your definition of 'midbreak' with respect to turret placement.

No real need for any, as anyone that actually look at how springsharp behaves will see it.
To make it clear, sim a ship with a freeboard aft of the midbreak 1pm high and in fron of the midbreak 10m high. Now add turrets and barbarettes and start moving them around, and you will see what happens.

[Carthaginian]

I note that you still have not produced a convincing citation for your definition of 'midbreak' with respect to turret placement.

No real need for any, as anyone that actually look at how springsharp behaves will see it.
To make it clear, sim a ship with a freeboard aft of the midbreak 1pm high and in fron of the midbreak 10m high. Now add turrets and barbarettes and start moving them around, and you will see what happens.

Anyway, his turret placement is the same relative placement as your BB... and you sim them all on deck level. Both are right, then.

[P3D]

Not the same turret arrangement. One is distributed (Korpen's*), the other is fore and aft. I'd note that those turrets would have exactly the same firing arcs if they were on the same deck, unlike on designs where there is actual superfiring.


*also Orange Battleships, and Austrian ones (without the midbreak)

[Carthaginian]

Not the same turret arrangement. One is distributed (Korpen's*), the other is fore and aft. I'd note that those turrets would have exactly the same firing arcs if they were on the same deck, unlike on designs where there is actual superfiring.

Well, then how would Tanthalas fix his arrangement?
Shifting them to 'all forward' would apparently be the way to go. That way, they would all technically be in the right place, even though they wouldn't necessarily LOOK it... similar to the 'on side, distributed' fudge that is made for the ships in question.

[Ithekro]

Since the midbreak is so far back, what would having an additional turret placed a center do to the sim?  (where the other three turrets are spaced majority forward)  Wouldn't it place the turret at the midbreak, at deck level?

[Tanthalas]

yes but if I split the turrets into 2 groups in ss2 I run into the same problem that the guys with wing turrets ran into.  That being that SS2 will force me to have 150 shells per gun for it.  and why would I place another 100 shells on that turret than I would on the others? Basicly I have the same problem everyone else has with wing turrets its just that I didnt bother with that argument becasue it didnt affect me.  If I switched it to centerline distributed would that be acceptable? (note I actualy simed it like that once but felt it didnt acuratly reflect what I wanted to do)

[Ithekro]

Well if it defaults to 150 for the center turret, then just sim the rest of the guns with 84 shells per gun.  That should place you at 100 shells per gun (plus one spare per turret) on average.

Would that work?

[maddox]

After reading all the flaming farts.
Springsharp2 is still the core of the Nverse.


On the "offending" Italian BB.  The wording on the Main gun lay out could have been different.

For example
3 turrets, centreline ends, (equal fore>aft.)
1 turret, centreline grouped center.

If center is dependend on mid-break, the X turret can be deck level, and has the benefits of superfiring without the increased barbette weight.

But, stepped hulls have their disadvantages.
Less hull strength given size.
Less seakeeping
Less flotation
Less accomodation/working space.

[Tanthalas]

this work for everyone? also all my hulls are steped LOL

Italia-BB-1911, Italia Battle Ship laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   24,498 t light; 25,71 t standard; 27,399 t normal; 28,743 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   638.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 97.00 ft x 29.60 ft (normal load)
   194.46 m / 190.50 m x 29.57 m  x 9.02 m

Armament:
      6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11,757 lbs / 5,333 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 83 (actualy 100 as the center turret has 150 per)

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   274.00 ft / 83.52 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   26.84 ft / 8.18 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   13.0" / 330 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 47,979 shp / 35,792 Kw = 23.41 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,024 tons

Complement:
   1,063 - 1,383

Cost:
   £2.397 million / $9.586 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,470 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 10,467 tons, 38.2 %
      - Belts: 5,537 tons, 20.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 523 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armament: 2,631 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,542 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 235 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,181 tons, 8.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,010 tons, 36.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,901 tons, 10.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,513 lbs / 17,923 Kg = 28.8 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.534
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.56 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (67 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.38 ft / 5.91 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,681 Square feet or 3,872 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 173 lbs/sq ft or 844 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.41
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

Should the six guns be in three turrets, two forward and one aft?

[P3D]

And now you have 2 superfiring turrets, for some mysterious reason.

[Tanthalas]

... lol it is a mistake from when I was moving guns around and I forgot to drop it to 3

[Ithekro]

Just didn't finished his corrections.  One more go at it and all should be well.

[Tanthalas]

Final I think... personaly this is the version I liked the feal of the least, but if everyone agrees its right I can live with it.

Italia-BB-1911, Italia Battle Ship laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   24,478 t light; 25,699 t standard; 27,379 t normal; 28,723 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   638.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 97.00 ft x 29.60 ft (normal load)
   194.46 m / 190.50 m x 29.57 m  x 9.02 m

Armament:
      6 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      2 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11,757 lbs / 5,333 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 83

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   274.00 ft / 83.52 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   26.84 ft / 8.18 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   13.0" / 330 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 23.42 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,024 tons

Complement:
   1,063 - 1,383

Cost:
   £2.397 million / $9.586 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,470 tons, 5.4 %
   Armour: 10,278 tons, 37.5 %
      - Belts: 5,537 tons, 20.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 523 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armament: 2,442 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,542 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 235 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,181 tons, 8.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,199 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,901 tons, 10.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,788 lbs / 18,047 Kg = 29.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 6.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.38

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.534
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.56 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (67 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.38 ft / 5.91 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,681 Square feet or 3,872 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 860 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.45
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Notes
actual shells per main gun is 100 however listed as 83 due to the fact that the midships mount has to have 150 shells per gun

added .006 kts to bring it up to 48K shp even

Planed class of 4 Marius, Caesar, Metellus, and Drusus

[Tanthalas]

I was playing around with Derfflinger today came up with this opinions?

Italia-BC-1911, Italia Battle Cruiser laid down 1911 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   22,199 t light; 23,134 t standard; 24,506 t normal; 25,604 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   638.00 ft / 625.00 ft x 89.30 ft x 29.60 ft (normal load)
   194.46 m / 190.50 m x 27.22 m  x 9.02 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4 mounts), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (1x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1911 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline amidships
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1911 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1911 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 7,693 lbs / 3,490 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   274.00 ft / 83.52 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
     Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   351.00 ft / 106.98 m   26.84 ft / 8.18 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   11.0" / 279 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 61,377 shp / 45,788 Kw = 25.50 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,470 tons

Complement:
   979 - 1,273

Cost:
   £1.927 million / $7.710 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 962 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 9,540 tons, 38.9 %
      - Belts: 5,230 tons, 21.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 523 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armament: 2,168 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,400 tons, 5.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 218 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,447 tons, 10.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,900 tons, 36.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,307 tons, 9.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36,553 lbs / 16,580 Kg = 42.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.4 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 17.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.519
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 26.56 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (67 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.38 ft / 5.91 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 149.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,847 Square feet or 3,516 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 795 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.45
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily