More reconstructional topics

[Valles]

Bardiche, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   32,128 t light; 33,789 t standard; 35,716 t normal; 37,257 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   708.64 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft (Bulges 104.99 ft) x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   215.99 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m (Bulges 32.00 m)  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      9 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (3x3 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (4x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, 16 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 16,064 lbs / 7,287 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   282.12 ft / 85.99 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   705.38 ft / 215.00 m   19.69 ft / 6.00 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.57" / 40 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   22.18 ft / 6.76 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   2.36" / 60 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 23,105 shp / 17,236 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,468 tons

Complement:
   1,298 - 1,688

Cost:
   £2.940 million / $11.761 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,008 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 12,886 tons, 36.1 %
      - Belts: 4,823 tons, 13.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 547 tons, 1.5 %
      - Armament: 4,731 tons, 13.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,508 tons, 7.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 276 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 921 tons, 2.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,789 tons, 44.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,587 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     83,683 lbs / 37,958 Kg = 101.6 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 13.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 18.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 81 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.87
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.72

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.735
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.72 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      32.81 ft / 10.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Stern:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   29.79 ft / 9.08 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 248.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 57,394 Square feet or 5,332 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 952 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.64
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia

Class of three:
Bardiche
Raging Heart
Reinforce

The torpedo belt is in/representing the bulges. As can be seen in the picture, the new turrets fit the barbettes for the old ones and might well even be built from them. The end belts would be pulled and the plates from the upper one moved into their place and replaced with a higher, thinner one. The new barbette goes in some of the space being freed up by the replaced engines. Overall, I'd guess the changes and refit as costing ~$12+6BP. Worth it for the increased range and broadside?

[P3D]

Honestly, I don't like the idea that triples could replace twins and twins singles. SS2/3  assumes that a triple turret is larger than a twin one, which is larger than a single one. That means pulling out each barbette and replacing them with new, larger ones.

I see no special difficulty for the amidships turret (it should fit), but it still needs extensive hull work.

[Ithekro]

It would be expensive.  What would it look like before the proposed reconstruction?

If it looks like I think it looks, it might be cheaper just to build upgraded version of it.  Cheaper is in that it won't take these ships off the battleline while you build more ships.

[Korpen]

The torpedo belt is in/representing the bulges. As can be seen in the picture, the new turrets fit the barbettes for the old ones and might well even be built from them. The end belts would be pulled and the plates from the upper one moved into their place and replaced with a higher, thinner one. The new barbette goes in some of the space being freed up by the replaced engines. Overall, I'd guess the changes and refit as costing ~$12+6BP. Worth it for the increased range and broadside?

Considering that most of the ships structure is changed, I think 12BP before adding in the cost of the new armament is on the low side. Closer to 20BP is my feeling, as with the major changes to the barbarettes and machinery space, you are almost only keeping the hull plating (just the armament is six BP).
With that and the fact that the ship have been in water for only some three or four years it seems like a waste.

[ledeper]

In ww2 the German Kriegsmarine planned to replace the triple 11,1"turrets of the Gneisenau with twin 15" ,barbette diameter was more or less the same,but the barbette structure had to been stregthened along with the turretfoundation

[Ithekro]

A reconstruction is usually 75% of the light tonnage, plus anything new added.  It usually isn't worth it, was can be done from time to time.

If this ship is what I think it is, changing the single wing turrets to twins and the twins to triples seems very odd.  Especially since there is no change in gun type.  To do that, plus change the engines, plus add torpedo defenses, plus add a new triple turret amidships, and remove two wing turrets....that is an awful lot of of work to do to 3/5th of your battle line.  Also these ships seem to grow...a lot.  They are turning into 35,000-36,000 tons (normal) ships from 29,000 ton ships...right?

[Valles]

If this ship is what I think it is, changing the single wing turrets to twins and the twins to triples seems very odd.  Especially since there is no change in gun type.  To do that, plus change the engines, plus add torpedo defenses, plus add a new triple turret amidships, and remove two wing turrets....that is an awful lot of of work to do to 3/5th of your battle line.  Also these ships seem to grow...a lot.  They are turning into 35,000-36,000 tons (normal) ships from 29,000 ton ships...right?

'Reconstruction' is the title given to it to keep people from bitching about how I can't change that much. The idea is to see how much I can do without changing much more of the interior than needed to swap the engines.

It wouldn't happen all at once, of course - I don't have the drydocks to do that. Probably they'll go in one at a time, though maybe staggered a bit. Most of the displacement change comes from the addition of the bulges, rather than from deeper alterations.

The new turrets are, as can be seen just looking at them, fairly cramped designs. Probably their performance-per-gun is more like quads and triples than triples and twins, since they're being forced into a smaller-than-optimal space. But single turrets just aren't worth it, so they can't stay as they are...

Aside from the roughly diamond-shaped area amidships around the mid-turrets and engines, which would be changed anyway on reengining, all of this involves adding or changing stuff on the surface or outside of the hull. That's the entire point.

[P3D]

Reconstruction and rebuilds are just different names for the same thing.

[Korpen]

If this ship is what I think it is, changing the single wing turrets to twins and the twins to triples seems very odd.  Especially since there is no change in gun type.  To do that, plus change the engines, plus add torpedo defenses, plus add a new triple turret amidships, and remove two wing turrets....that is an awful lot of of work to do to 3/5th of your battle line.  Also these ships seem to grow...a lot.  They are turning into 35,000-36,000 tons (normal) ships from 29,000 ton ships...right?

'Reconstruction' is the title given to it to keep people from bitching about how I can't change that much. The idea is to see how much I can do without changing much more of the interior than needed to swap the engines.

It wouldn't happen all at once, of course - I don't have the drydocks to do that. Probably they'll go in one at a time, though maybe staggered a bit. Most of the displacement change comes from the addition of the bulges, rather than from deeper alterations.

The new turrets are, as can be seen just looking at them, fairly cramped designs. Probably their performance-per-gun is more like quads and triples than triples and twins, since they're being forced into a smaller-than-optimal space. But single turrets just aren't worth it, so they can't stay as they are...

Aside from the roughly diamond-shaped area amidships around the mid-turrets and engines, which would be changed anyway on reengining, all of this involves adding or changing stuff on the surface or outside of the hull. That's the entire point.

You add and remove barbarettes; that is a MAJOR change in the structure of the ship. That "diamond shaped area" is about half the ship...

A large problem with mounting triple turrets on twin barbarettes is that you cannot expand the hoists and working chamber, so the amount of shells and ammunition that can be sent up to the guns remain basically the same.

I also noted something odd with the original ship, her picture show the centreline turrets one deck higher then her freeboard amidships. But her SS-file show her as having a flush deck.

[Valles]

You add and remove barbarettes; that is a MAJOR change in the structure of the ship. That "diamond shaped area" is about half the ship...

Most of which would, if I understand correctly, need to be torn out in order to replace the engines anyway.

A large problem with mounting triple turrets on twin barbarettes is that you cannot expand the hoists and working chamber, so the amount of shells and ammunition that can be sent up to the guns remain basically the same.

And if the battle gaming system used here (I don't know what it is or anything about it, but I gather there is one) models problems with turret design, then this should certainly take a hit for that. I'm not claiming that this is being done without drawbacks...

I also noted something odd with the original ship, her picture show the centreline turrets one deck higher then her freeboard amidships. But her SS-file show her as having a flush deck.

...what? *checks* Oh. The new version is flush. The old one wasn't.

[Korpen]

You add and remove barbarettes; that is a MAJOR change in the structure of the ship. That "diamond shaped area" is about half the ship...

Most of which would, if I understand correctly, need to be torn out in order to replace the engines anyway.

No, barbarettes are never over engine spaces (they got magazines beneath them), so there is no need to fiddle with them to change engines.

...what? *checks* Oh. The new version is flush. The old one wasn't.

Ok, I must have been dreaming.

[Valles]

No, barbarettes are never over engine spaces (they got magazines beneath them), so there is no need to fiddle with them to change engines.

Correct.

The original engine spaces run most of the centerline of the ship. The new ones are more compact, taking up about the forward and aft quarter-to-thirds of the original engine spaces, which the new barbette and its magazine then go in between.

[P3D]

Regarding Maori escorts: I suggest to remove the Torpedo Bulkhead. On 5-6000t there's not enough beam for them. A torpedo exploding will just punch through it, there's no standoff distance worth anything.

The minimum displacement where TB is efficient is around 15,000t.

[Ithekro]

I'm still stuck on Wesworld terms half the time.

But on this ship.  This will be very expensive to do.  you are practically replacing almost all the armament, so that is around 2,000 tons, plus the armor for the armament, that is about another 4,500 tons, plus the engine which is about 1,000 tons, and adding a torpedo bulkhead, that's 500 tons.  That is 8,000 tons of new materials, costing $11  and 8 BP for materials alone, then another 2.632 BP and $6.58 for the rebuild.  So that is something around $17.58 and 10.632 BP per unit.  Also it would be in dock for at least 17 months + 3 month shake down cruise.  So each ship would be out of service 20 months effectively.

While this is about half the cost and a third the BP to build a new Battleship of the same type I'm not quite convinced that someone would design a ship in this manner in 1906 to be able to do such a massive upgrade in 1912.  I could see going from a larger number of guns down to a smaller number of larger guns (done historically), but to make a turret intentionally huge so that you can add another barrel doesn't seem partical from an engineers point of view, not a political point of view.  Few budgets would allow for such overbuilt projects to be followed by throwing more money at it in such a short period of time.  That is why I called this a reconstruction in the Wesworld sense of the word.  75% of the light tonnage and time would be needed in that case.  Some call that overpriced, much like the 50% rebuilds and 25% refits.

Question that may add even more to the cost.  What do the bulges cost to add to the hull?  Do they fit over the armor, or does the armor have to be reworked over the bulges?  Also does added weight between the original ship's light tonnage and the rebuilt ship's light tonnage get added to the calculation in any way, or is that figured as part of the "added components".

[Valles]

New guns: ~900 tons
Small turret faceplates reforged: ~360 tons
Large turret faceplates reforged: ~200 tons
New turret: ~750 tons
External torpedo bulge: ~500 tons
Engine: ~850 tons
Total: ~3560 tons plus structural work - call it 4000-4500 total. With about 1100 tons of scrap or old materials coming off.

While this is about half the cost and a third the BP to build a new Battleship of the same type I'm not quite convinced that someone would design a ship in this manner in 1906 to be able to do such a massive upgrade in 1912.  I could see going from a larger number of guns down to a smaller number of larger guns (done historically), but to make a turret intentionally huge so that you can add another barrel doesn't seem practical from an engineers point of view, not a political point of view.  Few budgets would allow for such overbuilt projects to be followed by throwing more money at it in such a short period of time.

With respect, Maori doctrine is not yours to define. Building for a larger projected future need, with expansion in mind, is very much their style. Look at their air program, for example. I gave very serious thought to making their primary harbors Class 5 for my start rather than Class 3.

The idea of adding additional guns was not intended in the original design, no. What was intended was that the gun crews should have all the room to work that they could possibly need.

The driving force behind the idea of performing some major work on the Bardiche class is that their engines were already pushing obsolescence when they were laid down. They're massive, complicated... their existing incarnations are the only ships I have which have either coal-firing, reciprocating engines, or non-electric drive.

The bulges are overlaid on the existing armor and hull, yes.

Also does added weight between the original ship's light tonnage and the rebuilt ship's light tonnage get added to the calculation in any way, or is that figured as part of the "added components".

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.