More reconstructional topics

[Ithekro]

Are you sure on those weights?  It looks like you'd have to replace all the turrets with new ones rather that just add/switch gun positions inside the existing turrets.  Then the armor for the new turrets.  New deck armor to cover the holes from those two amidships wing turrets that are being removed.  Plus you are adding torpedo bulkheads right?  Arn't those build inside the hull behind void spaces?  Would that mean that you would have to gut the entire length of the ship to install the bulkhead?  (I'm missing something here because there aren't more complaints from the rest of the board.)

I'm not arguing Maori's doctine.  I'm debating if this is actually possible to reconstruct in this fashion, and if there is any government that would put money into such an expensive vessel twice in a relatively short period of time.  This proposal seems like it would be vastly more expensive than the numbers being generated.  If I had more engineering knowledge I could say if this can actually be done at all in any realistic sense.

As for the last question, it was directed more at people who wrote the rules and might be able to answer the question if the tonnage difference is considered "normal steel" and added into the construction cost, or considered to have been covered by other components (such as the guns and armor) added to the ship.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Can I be directed to the original?

Borys

[Ithekro]

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2009.msg21508#msg21508

[Valles]

Original version is the second post here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=2009.0

Are you sure on those weights?  It looks like you'd have to replace all the turrets with new ones rather that just add/switch gun positions inside the existing turrets.

The external dimensions of the 'new' turrets are exactly the same as the old ones. Most of their structure is untouched.

Then the armor for the new turrets.  New deck armor to cover the holes from those two amidships wing turrets that are being removed.

At the same time that a new, larger barbette is going in midships. Probably I'm being a touch generous assuming that that hole would balance out, but not by much, I think.

Plus you are adding torpedo bulkheads right?  Arn't those build inside the hull behind void spaces?  Would that mean that you would have to gut the entire length of the ship to install the bulkhead?  (I'm missing something here because there aren't more complaints from the rest of the board.)

What I've marked and referred to as 'bulkheads' actually aren't. They're a representation of or something intended to fool the program into showing the effect of the torpedo bulges, which are external to the original hull, and make up most of the increased tonnage and reinforcement.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Replacement of singles with twins, and twins with triples, of same calibre, not possible. Unless declared at construction stage.
Please build a new ship, keeping the old name. You can transfer the guns and subtract that from the BP cost.
Borys

[Valles]

Curses, foiled again.

[Korpen]

With respect, Maori doctrine is not yours to define. Building for a larger projected future need, with expansion in mind, is very much their style. Look at their air program, for example. I gave very serious thought to making their primary harbors Class 5 for my start rather than Class 3.

Not for me to define, but I feel free to question the sense of it.

The idea of adding additional guns was not intended in the original design, no. What was intended was that the gun crews should have all the room to work that they could possibly need.

The driving force behind the idea of performing some major work on the Bardiche class is that their engines were already pushing obsolescence when they were laid down. They're massive, complicated... their existing incarnations are the only ships I have which have either coal-firing, reciprocating engines, or non-electric drive.

While the ships are far from perfect (but that is not something you are alone about), these three battleships have cost every single BP Maori have for four years. To make a massive rebuild after only two years seems very strange.
And I will question policies of other players, if nothing else to get answers about the thought behind the action. I am not really interested in the "news" part of the forums any longer, but I find design policy interesting and fun, that is why I will ask a lot of "Why?". 

[Tanthalas]

Curses, foiled again.

Welcome to my world ^.^

[Carthaginian]

I am not really interested in the "news" part of the forums any longer

Read that news, and you'll find out all you need to know.
I haven't posted a design- EVER- that didn't have it's roots there.

[Korpen]

I am not really interested in the "news" part of the forums any longer

Read that news, and you'll find out all you need to know.
I haven't posted a design- EVER- that didn't have it's roots there.

Maybe, but that usually tells very little about the design choices, as can bee seen on the often very interesting debates that some of your designs triggered. :)

[Tanthalas]

I am not really interested in the "news" part of the forums any longer

Read that news, and you'll find out all you need to know.
I haven't posted a design- EVER- that didn't have it's roots there.

Maybe, but that usually tells very little about the design choices, as can bee seen on the often very interesting debates that some of your designs triggered. :)

LOL atleast his spark Debate mine usualy just get views, and fall down the board with no responces...

[Valles]

Bardiche, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   26,297 t light; 27,506 t standard; 29,520 t normal; 31,132 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 10,298 lbs / 4,671 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   282.12 ft / 85.99 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   705.38 ft / 215.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   2.36" / 60 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 28,835 shp / 21,511 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,626 tons

Complement:
   1,125 - 1,463

Cost:
   £2.163 million / $8.650 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,287 tons, 4.4 %
   Armour: 10,656 tons, 36.1 %
      - Belts: 4,711 tons, 16.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3,382 tons, 11.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,320 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 243 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,150 tons, 3.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,679 tons, 42.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,224 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     84,217 lbs / 38,200 Kg = 102.2 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 6.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 6.9 ft / 2.1 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.81

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.648
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 34 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Stern:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   29.53 ft / 9.00 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 48.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 265.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 53,088 Square feet or 4,932 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 829 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.68
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia

Class of three:
Bardiche
Raging Heart
Reinforce

A much more modest proposal, pretty much just replacing the engine spaces.

Oh, and, BTW, I did a bit of checking, comparing these to competing battleships.

Apparently, sinking just one of them takes about as much fire as putting under some other navies' entire battlelines.

I feel much better about them, now. ^_^

[Tanthalas]

LOL ya uhm some of my ships are Glass Cannons, actualy I think most all of us have a few

[Korpen]

Oh, and, BTW, I did a bit of checking, comparing these to competing battleships.

Apparently, sinking just one of them takes about as much fire as putting under some other navies' entire battlelines.
I feel much better about them, now. ^_^

You somehow overlooked that they are pretty much the largest warships in the world?

[Ithekro]

Even larger than the French monsters, and France is the world power.