1905 - what happened

[The Rock Doctor]

Issue one:  

NS must have had (and lost) some industry in the Japanese islands.  It wouldn't make sense for those islands to be undeveloped.  It may be reasonable to think that the remaining NS economy then had to grow somewhat to account for that lost industry.

The inherited ex-NS industry would form the basis of the new Japanese economy.  It would be supplemented by Japanese territorial gains in Siberia.  Rather than spend additional resources building new warships, perhaps the focus in Japan in '03 to '05 is building up the economy, particularly the heavy industrial sector necessary to support that newly acquired fleet of theirs.

On the whole, though, I'd guess that neither the "new" NS or Japan would be first-rate economic powers as we start in 1906, because what they hatched from was not a world-leader in the first place.

[Ithekro]

Issue One:

Out of curitosity:

Based on pre-existing known data and using the new rules, what level should the two governements be at with regular growth?

Then maximum possible if military funds are used (minus theoretical upkeep costs)?

[Desertfox]

So kind of like a Pranger style counter coup?

That could work, but we are still left with the problem as to how the Japanese managed to get Manchuria while in turnmoil. And how the Chinese manage to lose it but still managed to capture Hong Kong (as they happened at the same time)

As for what I have right now that can be found in the New Switzerland thread, I can have a few ships be incomplete (United States, Antares, and some of the DDs).

[P3D]

How did the Japanese get Manchuria? The Chinese decided to give it to them, so they'd be strong against NS aggression.

[Ithekro]

Hong Kong is not a matter of capture, its a matter of leveled.  It is useless...no one in their right mind would go there.  It's like walking into a minefield with all the unexploded ordinance and the sea mines left in the harbors.

Basically that is No-Man's Land.

[Walter]

Problem with Desertfox's 'plan' is that Port Arthur will be part of the Middle Kingdom. If we follow his 'route', you have to realize that once Japan captures it, Japen will not just hand it over to the Middle Kingdom. Maybe in about 100 years...
You might probably think: "Well, then perhaps the Japanese were unable to captured Port Arthur." Unfortunately with Japan having the territories it has as given on the map, the victory over the Russians must have been huge, greater than in our history. There is no way that Port Arthur would not fall into the hands of the Japanese eventually. So it probably won't work.

The only way to make it work is to make it a little bit different would be to go back to the 1590s. Japan invades Korea. In real history, China send forces to Korea to stop the Japanese (while successful, it weakened China and resulted in Manchuria taking over China). MK does not do it here. Japanese forces push on into Manchuria, west and north. The westward forces hit the Great Wall (which starts somewhere to the east where Port Arthur lies now) and are unable to move further. Northward drive captures Manchuria and then goes on beyond, capturing those eastern parts of Russia.
Now while a Sino-Japan war would be possible, I think it is unlikely that there would be a Russo-Japan war (or perhaps there is, but it will happen on land, not at sea). This would explain how Japan got the territories it has now, will mean that PA is part of the MK and the NS-Japan relations would be neutral.
Of course that brings its own problem as it will have to fit inside the present history and would take a lot of time (perhaps too much time) so it probably won't work either.

So of these...
... rest go to the Russian fleet.

Desertfox, if you want to know, these ships were captured by Japan during the Russo-Japan war:

Battleships:
Iwami  (Orel)
Sagami  (Peresviet)
Suwo (Pobieda)
Hizen  (Retvisan)
Tango  (Poltava)
Iki (Imperator Nikolai I)

Armored Ships:
Mishima (Admiral Senyiavin)
Okinoshima (General Admiral Apraksin)

Cruisers:
Aso (Bayan)
Soya (Varyag)
Tsugaru (Pallada)
Suzuya (Novik)

Destroyers:
Fumizuki (Baklan)
Yamabiko (Kondor)
Satsuki (Keta)
Shikinami (Gaidamak)
Makigumo (Vsadnik)

I dont have a problem with the fleet, the historical Japanese navy was also very big.

When comparing the two fleets, Olekit's 1901 (yes, 1901) fleet is 230 ships (with an unknown number of ships under construction) while the historical 1906 Japanese fleet was 173 (with 32 ships under construction).


Borys's Pacific Fleet plan
For simplicity, it is assumed that no ships were purchased/built between 1901 and 1906.
BB: 10(0)+0
CA 10(0)+0
PC 16(0)+0
Mon 3(0)+0
GB: 11(0)+0
DD: 104(0)+0
Mine: 72(0)+0
SB: 4(0)+0
Total: 230(0)+0


Japanese Historical Fleet 1906
BB: 12(0)+3
C1: 9(0)+3
C2: 11(0)+1
C3: 8(0)+0
DD: 29(0)+21
SB: 5(0)+2
CD: 12(0)+0
DP: 3(0)+0
GB: 7(0)+2
TB: 78(0)+0

Total: 174(0)+32


For comparison...
My Original (Almost) Historical Fleet 1906 plan
Based on what I gave above with the Korean invasion, etc. This list assumes no Sino-Japan war or Russo-Japan war so no ships added or lost due to that conflict. Since Japan would get more territory, I decided to add Japan's 1903/1904 BB design to the list.
BB: 8(0)+3
C1: 8(0)+3
C2: 10(0)+1
C3: 8(0)+0
DD: 32(0)+21
SB: 5(0)+2
CD1: 11(0)+0
DP: 4(0)+0
GB: 10(0)+2
TB: 85(0)+0

Total: 181(0)+32

redesigned by Walter, as Olekit's designs were not very good

... there were those 1918 engines I ran into. I won't even mention the transom stern I encountered on one of the ships or the fact that I couldn't replicate one of Olekit's turbine designs without having the overal HS drop below -3.00 (yes minus)

Suppose the 1500 disaster didn't wipe out the Japanese.  Just weakened them enough that when the Swiss arrived, the Swiss took over, in a friendly kind of way...

Unfortunately, I don't see how something like that could happen in a friendly way. It's more likely going to end in blood the moment NS tries to take over.

How did the Japanese get Manchuria? The Chinese decided to give it to them, so they'd be strong against NS aggression.

... which no doubt will bring us back to Desertfox's 'original' "But the way it happens pretty much makes the Japanese an enemy of NS (one too many)" problem. :)

Hong Kong is not a matter of capture, its a matter of leveled.  It is useless...no one in their right mind would go there.  It's like walking into a minefield with all the unexploded ordinance and the sea mines left in the harbors.

*Looks at Wesworld*
I might be crazy enough to do just that. ;D

[Desertfox]

Walter my version does have Japan capturing Port Arthur.

[Walter]

Yes, but if I am not mistaken, the idea is that it will be MK territory, not Japanese. Your version prevents that from happening as it is impossible that that will happen.

[Ithekro]

If I recall, Port Arthur and its surrounding were being leased by Russian from the Middle Kingdom in Navalism 1.2 history.  Thus if the Russians default on payment, the Middle Kingdom come in and repossess the region (not unlike the reason for the War around Hong Kong).


That said I like the more "Japan has been there" method as it is cleaner.  I know Borys hates the idea of someone changing simmed history, but somethings got to give someplace to make this all make sense logically.  It would be nice if we could make the changes, if any, as small as possible to minimze frustrations.  It is not perfect because it involved the New Swiss and anything involving the New Swiss has lead to trouble (through Foxy's efforts or without even).  So I'd suggest finding a middle ground of some sort.  Not everyone will be happy with it, but it will be good enough so that it doesn't become a constant sticky point  (Wesworld people might recall various arguments over advanced technology in Europe's Boot when we don't even have a tech tree).

[Ithekro]

Issue Three:

Probable solution:

New Switzerland gets:

50,000 tons of new construction from 1/1/1902-12/31/1905 (this replaced any construction done in that period from before)

Divided roughly equally, so 12,500 tons a year or 6,250 tons every reporting period using the present rules system.

Two techs down per year, so the Swiss would be eight down for ships laid down 1902, six 1903, four 1904, and two 1905.  Logical choice of techs please (from those the Swiss didn't have yet at the end of 1901...and the better Turbines come later in that progression, please).

Old ships cannot be redesigned.  They may be refitted-rebuild-reconstructed as per the rules.
Whatever was on the Fleet List in 12/31/1901 remains as it was.
Ships hidden in that report were lost at sea...never to return in anyones hands.
No Antares..she's still lost in the war.  A new one will need to be built if possible. (Your 1901 report is confusing us on this count Foxy.  In it the Antares is being worked on, but our question is how?)
The ACM fleet including the rebuilt Hawaii as Ithekro's SpringSharp and ex-Goa as Swampen's Springsharp should be kept or sold...or not purchased if that is the case.

New Switzerland Fleet Q4/1901
Roster: In service (Refitting/Repairing)+Building (note: inaccurate due to war losses)

BB: 0(0)+1 (Hawaii)
cB: 3(0)
SC: 1(0)
AC: 4(0)+3
PC: 6(0)
PC: 16(0)ex-ACM
PS: 13(0)
LC: 10(1)+1
DD: 39(0)
GB: 20(0)
TB: 28(0)
EX: 2(0)
SS: 5(0)
LZ: 1(0)
Aux: 6(0)
VLS: 204(0)+10

VLS=very light ships
LZ=Airships

Comments?  Questions?

[Ithekro]

Issue Two:

I like Walter's Naval Plan best.  Not as many larger ships in the water (yet).

My Original (Almost) Historical Fleet 1906 plan
Based on what I gave above with the Korean invasion, etc. This list assumes no Sino-Japan war or Russo-Japan war so no ships added or lost due to that conflict. Since Japan would get more territory, I decided to add Japan's 1903/1904 BB design to the list.
BB: 8(0)+3
C1: 8(0)+3
C2: 10(0)+1
C3: 8(0)+0
DD: 32(0)+21
SB: 5(0)+2
CD1: 11(0)+0
DP: 4(0)+0
GB: 10(0)+2
TB: 85(0)+0

Total: 181(0)+32

[P3D]

What is the total tonnage of the Japanese fleet?

[Desertfox]

Antares wasnt lost in the war it was Alliance (15,000t). And to have her back I was scrapping 3 5,000 ton CBs and have her be finished after the war (so it would still work). The ships I wanted to redisign where the DDs because they just look silly with a 15 ft draft on a 500 ton ship, they wouldnt be better (no gun, speed, etc changes) just be more realistic (they where the first ships I designed in SS1, hence the inacuracies)  


This is my Fleet list as of Q1/02:

Naval List as of January 1st 1902 (note: more ships might be sunk due to war)

Current Fleet:

2 Super Cruisers SC 4x12in, 21.9kt.
NSS Constitution (damaged)
NSS Alliance (sunk)

3 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 22.9kt.
NSS Sirus
NSS Polaris
NSS Canis

1 Heavy Cruiser AC 4x9in, 27kt.
NSS Antares (building)

4 Protected Cruisers PC 4x8in, 21.9kt.
NSS Olympia (sunk)
NSS Phoenix (damaged)
NSS Anchorage (damaged)
NSS Sydney (sunk)

13 Protected Sailing Cruisers PSC 2x6in, 17kt.
NSS Taipei
NSS Zurich
NSS Melbourne
NSS New Amsterdam
NSS Seattle
NSS Treton
NSS Portland
NSS Launceston (sunk)
NSS Kayenta
NSS Port Blair
NSS Kwalajein
NSS McKean
NSS New York

2 Protected Cruiser PC 2x6in, 19kt.
NSS Saipan
NSS Atlanta

2 Coastal Battleships CB 4x10in, 15kt.
NSS Alaska
NSS Australia

12 Light Cruisers LC 2x6in, 4x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Pegausus (damaged)
NSS Minotaur (sunk)
NSS Griffin
NSS Kraken
NSS Nessie (damaged)
NSS Centaur (sunk)
NSS Beleraphon
NSS Valkyrie
NSS Scycilia
NSS Cerebrus (sunk)
NSS Sphinx
NSS Bagheera

13 Destroyers DD 2x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Johann Wyss class (damaged)
NSS Van Winkle (damaged)
NSS James Watt
NSS John Walter (damaged)
10 other unnamed (9 sunk)

25 Destroyers DD 2x3in, 4TT, 22.9kt.(8 wt mines)
NSS Fritz class
(1 sunk)

4 Destroyers DD 2x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Mendez class (rebuild ex-ACM T40 class)

1 Destroyer DD 2x4in, 4TT, 25kt.
NSS Littelstone class

10 Gun Boats GB 2x4in, 21kt
(rebuild ex-ACM G1 class)

16 Heavy Torpedo Boats TH 2x47mm, 5TT, 27kt
(ex-CSA TR 1896 class)

50 Fast Torpedo Boats TS 1x50cal, 4TT, 35kt
NSS Turbinia class

10 Gunboats GB 1x4in, 12kt

Miscellaneous Torpedo boats & Auxiliaries:
114 TB 2TT (2 sunk)
50  PT 4TT (1 sunk)
24  TBD 2TT, 1x3in (scraped)

1 "Mystery Ship" SGX? 4x14in dynamite guns?, 22.9kt?
NSSx Vesuvius?

1 submarine SS 4kt.
NSSx Holland

5 submarine SS 5kt, 1TT
NSS Archerfish
NSS Amberjack
NSS Argonaut
NSS Albacore
NSS Angler

1 submarine SS 8kt, 2TT
NSS Bonita

Auxilaries
5 AMC Nottingham class (1 damaged)
20 ACG Auxilary Gunboats (2 sunk)


ACM ships:

1 Battleship BB 4x12in, 21kt
ex-ACM Hawaii (under construction)

1 Coastal Battleship CB 2x12in, 15.6kt
ex-ACM Defence

2 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 19.3kt
ex-ACM Honolulu (ex Marlin) under construction
ex-ACM Pearl Harbor (ex-Dolphin) under construction

1 Heavy Cruiser 12x6in, 18.2kt
ex-ACM Tuna

3 Trade Fast Cruisers TFC 6x6in, 21.9kt
ex-ACM Carp (damaged)
ex-ACM Pike
ex-ACM Swordfish

11 Trade Protected Cruisers TPC 6x6in, 18.5kt
ex-ACM Cod
ex-ACM Trout
ex-ACM Manta
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM
ex-ACM (sunk)


3 Trade Cruisers TC 6x6in, 16.5kt (sold)
ex-ACM Salmon
ex-ACM Skipjack
ex-ACM Sturgeon

1 Coilier CC 4x6in, 14.6 kt
ex-ACM Ayudador

12 Torpedo Boats TB 1x3in, 2 16in TT, 22.2 kt
ex-ACM T40 class (2 badly damaged)

10 Gun Boats GB 2x3in, 21.8 kt
ex-ACM G1 class
(3 sunk)

2 Heavy Cruisers AC 4x8in, 19kt
ex-GC Defender (ex Protector)
ex-GC Warrior (ex Guerrero)

2 Coastal Battleships CB 4x8in, 15kt
ex-DKB Liberty (ex Siegwulf)
ex-DKB Justice (ex Beowulf) (sunk)

[Ithekro]

I see.  I suppose Maddox approved that?  (the 3 for 1 plan)

My suggestion  is don't redesign the destroyers...scrap them and maybe some of your acquired ACM ships and build new destroyers to replace them.  They'll be newer and won't need to be refitted for many more years.

I'd also suggest scrapping a lot of the older ships of the fleet during this opportunity.  You might only get back 15% but it is something.

Note: Hawaii wasn't "under construction"  she was being rebuilt in Rohan.  Now if you'd like a different Hawaii, I'd suggest building a new one in 1902...defaulting on the sale of the former ACM ship...so you'd loose about 2,000 tons of material I guess from 1901 invested in her...She wouldn't have sat forever in dock in Rohan, and would have been converted into a target ship as Rohan planned to begin with.

[The Rock Doctor]

I recall the two former GC armored cruisers being sold...to DKB, I think.