1905 - what happened

[Desertfox]

Well I did propose giving him the historical captured Russian ships, and letting him have the historical (or own) Japanese fleet.

[The Rock Doctor]

I agree that it's a big frickin' navy - but it was there before; stats were posted for it.  It just didn't do very much.  And it should have been on the Swiss radar screen, because Russia was allied to France during the NS/French hijinks.  So I don't agree that it necessary adds to your burden any more than re-activating the CSA (or, eventually, Mesoamerica) do to mine, for example.

I do agree that it's confusing, to a point, but so were your alternate takes on history.

So puzzle me this, guys:  in the original sim, NS lost the Japanese islands to a "Brownshirt" revolution, which saw the NSN flee en masse to Hawaii or somewhere.  Is there any particular reason this can't still be the case - in which case 1905 only has to see Japan pick up a fleet and have its government become more Japanese in composition?

[Desertfox]

I dont have a problem with the fleet, the historical Japanese navy was also very big. But the way it happens pretty much makes the Japanese and enemy of NS (one too many) and I would at least want them to be neutral.

[Ithekro]

Basic problem: from a "historical" angle.

Navalism 1.2 did not have any Japan and had a full Russia.  
The New Swiss were based out of the Home Islands with Korea, Taiwan, Hainan, a few treaty ports on the Mainland, parts of Australia, Anchorage, and lots of islands across the Pacific  (and later former ACM owned Hawaii).
The Swiss lost a war with the Chinese (more or less) that denied them use of the treaty ports.  There was a big split in the Swiss population (which Foxy left the sim for a time) that resulted in the former Swiss Republic being at least four different countries.

Navalism 1.3 does have Japan and Russia seems to have been somewhat neutered.
The New Swiss Home Islands have been shifted some thousands of miles east, they now have Taiwan, Hainan, Two-thirds of expanded Australia, Alaska, Hawaii, and lots of islands across the Pacific.  They lost the treaty ports during the war with China, and probably never had Korea.  There was probably no split, and the Swiss are making waves at the Philippines.

Basic problem is justifications for the altered state of the timeline.  Some wish for a basic no fundimental change, all alterations happened during 1905 as events from Navalism 1.2 - 1.3.

Some see that as impossible to justify within the span of a year.

Others see this as an "always was" with Japan having been there in place since the Navalism 1.2 disaster in 1500 AD (thus taking that destruction and the need for as much of the population shift to the Americas), thus shifting the Swiss Homeland from Japan to the new islands to the east for all history.  Thus Dynastic Japan remains in place from 1500 - 1900.

The fleet issue is about what placement the 1.2 Russian Pacific Fleet is in verses the Historical Japanese Navy.

Bory's view seems to want to have the Japanese Navy be the Russian Pacific Fleet (corrected to Walter's standards).

Desertfox's view seems to want the have the Historical (or whatever Walter comes up with version) Japanese Fleet in addition to the Historical number of captured Russian vessels (also corrected to Walter's standards) from the Russo-Japanese War (which would happen in this time period 1904-05).

(There of course is the evil option to do both, giving Walter the roughly Historical Japanese Navy and the corrected Navalism 1.2 Russian Pacific Fleet.)

After this is resolved and Japan's economy is setup, Walter can go about designing and building new ships, or rebuilding we he has already.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
"in the original sim, NS lost the Japanese islands to a "Brownshirt" revolution, which saw the NSN flee en masse to Hawaii or somewhere.  Is there any particular reason this can't still be the case - in which case 1905 only has to see Japan pick up a fleet and have its government become more Japanese in composition?"

And this is what I am trying to achieve. I give the Japanese the Russian Far East Fleet (redesigned by Walter, as Olekit's designs were not very good) and the Exiles taking over the Gov't from the Brownshirts. This does not call for any change in previous Gaming, and a minor touches on pre-sim events.

Desertfox wants - if I understood correctly - "Others see this as an "always was" with Japan having been there in place since the Navalism 1.2 disaster in 1500 AD (thus taking that destruction and the need for as much of the population shift to the Americas), thus shifting the Swiss Homeland from Japan to the new islands to the east for all history.  Thus Dynastic Japan remains in place from 1500 - 1900."

But why does this imply re-writing the Sino-New Swiss War, redesigning ships (?) and some other ideas, this I do not understand

Borys

[Desertfox]

But why does this imply re-writing the Sino-New Swiss War, redesigning ships (?) and some other ideas, this I do not understand

No Korea and Japan means no Battle of Yantai (which is the major change) so to keep the defeats and victories it got moved to Manila (for NS) and Port Aurthur (for MK).

As for the ships. My fleet was a mess, my DDs for example had too much draught, I jumped from a 10" gun, 15kt CB to a 12" 22kt BC, I didnt know exacly when Antares or Launceston was finishes, etc etc. Thats why Im rebuilding my fleet. Its not getting any better or bigger, just fixing problems. DDs with less draught, Australia and Hawaii from ex-ACM to Swiss designed as a mid way step between Alaska and Consti, Antares fixed date wise, etc. But for example Hawaii stilll gets beaten up and requires a rebuild.

[The Rock Doctor]

Okay:  I'll wipe my planned post and instead just ask:

Suppose the 1500 disaster didn't wipe out the Japanese.  Just weakened them enough that when the Swiss arrived, the Swiss took over, in a friendly kind of way...

Events we have seen in the sim continue as they did in the previous sim...

Fast-forward to 1905.  The Brownshirts are in power.  They're making noise about "getting" NS.  The ethnic Japanese decide, "We're not interested in fighting that war.  We'd just like our country back."  Brief orgy of violence guts the Brownshirts, leaving an indigenous Japanese government in place that views the whole Swiss thing as finished business and starts with a blank slate so far as foreign affairs are concerned.

Would that work for everybody?

[Ithekro]

Could we stick to one issue at a time please?

Issue One: Timeline in relation to Swiss and Japan

Issue Two: Japan's Fleet

Issue Three: Swiss' Fleet

[Borys]

Ahoj!
As per Ithekro's post:

1 - Rock's proposal works for me

2 - nothing to add to what I already posted

3 - And why should you redesign your ships?  You screwed them up, so that's what you got.


Borys

[P3D]

Works for me.

[Ithekro]

Issue One:

Rocky's solution mixed with Borys history makes a little more sense than either alone.

If we are still talking Swiss split, the Japan rise to power would be later 1901 or 1902 (not 1905).  The abandonment of the Russian Pacific Frontier, and the Japanese population of Korea/Port Arthur area would be 1904-05.

However the remaining Swiss "Home Islands" would still be the grouping to the east, thus no economic "hardship" such as what happened in Navalism 1.2...instead the Swiss stay at their (older 1902) value in terms of industry and population.

Swiss relations with the Japanese might actually be favorable if the Swiss view this as a "better them than Brownshirts" situation.  Plus gives them a potental ally (I assume).

[Ithekro]

Issue Two:

The abondoned Russian Forces thrown their lot with Korea and Japan after lossing all hope of help from Moscow....especially in Prenger in involved in the "expantion of the Japanese frontier".

Japan would have the industries of Japan (maybe Korea) to work with from 1/1/1902-1/1/1906 for new built ships, since the mainline Swiss took the Fleet with them.  (half BP during those four years such as the Baltic and Dutch have?)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Issue One:

"If we are still talking Swiss split, the Japan rise to power would be later 1901 or 1902 (not 1905).
The abandonment of the Russian Pacific Frontier, and the Japanese population of Korea/Port Arthur area would be 1904-05."

The Swiss split in winter 1902/03. Nipponisation of Nippon could be in late 1903 or in 1904, purchase of Russian Fleet in 1905.

"However the remaining Swiss "Home Islands" would still be the grouping to the east, thus no economic "hardship" such as what happened in Navalism 1.2...instead the Swiss stay at their (older 1902) value in terms of industry and population."
Why?

"Swiss relations with the Japanese might actually be favorable if the Swiss view this as a "better them than Brownshirts" situation.  Plus gives them a potental ally (I assume)."
Yes.
Borys

[Ithekro]

Issue Three:  (the touchy issue)

There seems to be some confusion at to just what the Swiss have in terms of a fleet from the War to the end of 1904.

We are working on what I hope is a useable solution.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
In 4Q1904 the New Swiss claimed an underfunded  fleet of:
Roster: In service (Refitting/Repairing)+Building

BB: 2(0)
CB: 2(0)+2
AC: 6(0)
PC: 24(0)
LC: 10(0)+2(export)
DD: 63(0)+1
GB: 15(0)
SS: 9(0)
AU: 5(0)
TB: 50(0)
LZ: 1(0)

Borys