Retroactive call for designs!

[Eugenius]

Does Ukraina have Oil Fired tech, for the 20% oil part of the power plant? Or Italy in 1906, for that matter?
Borys

Hold on, just noticed that.

No decision has been made, we're looking at our other options.  Coal-firing is definitely preferred, thanks to our large coal deposits.

[Tanthalas]

Italy had oil fierd in 1906 ^.^

[Ithekro]

Coal fired version without the 9 inch secondary battery and slightly greater range/cruiser speed, more shells per gun, and more extra wieght for things/improvements (though not as overbuilt as before).

King

Ukranian Battleship laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18,710 t light; 19,871 t standard; 21,431 t normal; 22,593 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 92.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   167.64 m / 167.64 m x 28.04 m  x 7.01 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 936.00lbs / 424.56kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      20 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      12 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1907 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 6 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,606 lbs / 4,811 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   190.00 ft / 57.91 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 38,000 shp / 28,348 Kw = 22.31 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,808 tons)

Complement:
   885 - 1,151

Cost:
   £1.966 million / $7.866 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,245 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 7,240 tons, 33.8 %
      - Belts: 3,644 tons, 17.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,990 tons, 9.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,406 tons, 6.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 200 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,900 tons, 8.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,026 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,721 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,307 lbs / 11,933 Kg = 30.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.4 ft / 1.6 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.645
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.98 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 64
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.32 ft / 4.97 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,996 Square feet or 3,530 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 163 lbs/sq ft or 798 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.28
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Eugenius]

What do people think of this design?  I combined different features from several people's designs...

Volodymir, Ukrainian Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18,115 t light; 18,998 t standard; 20,009 t normal; 20,818 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   539.97 ft / 535.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   164.58 m / 163.07 m x 26.82 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 900.00lbs / 408.23kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      24 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 21.00lbs / 9.53kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 9,351 lbs / 4,242 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   340.00 ft / 103.63 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   195.00 ft / 59.44 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   340.00 ft / 103.63 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   340.00 ft / 103.63 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 33,772 shp / 25,194 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,820 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   840 - 1,093

Cost:
   £1.831 million / $7.324 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,143 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 6,855 tons, 34.3 %
      - Belts: 3,056 tons, 15.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 315 tons, 1.6 %
      - Armament: 2,042 tons, 10.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,268 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 175 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,689 tons, 8.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,128 tons, 40.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,894 tons, 9.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,864 lbs / 13,546 Kg = 34.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.55

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.595
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.13 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.25 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (50 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.08 ft / 6.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 175.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,273 Square feet or 3,184 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 818 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Tanthalas]

under armored imo.

[Carthaginian]

A BB just ain't a BB without armor enough to stop it's own guns.
Try something with a bit more main, and a bit less upper... 6" maybe?

[Eugenius]

Better?

Volodymir, Ukrainian Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18,943 t light; 19,842 t standard; 20,842 t normal; 21,642 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   539.97 ft / 535.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 25.25 ft (normal load)
   164.58 m / 163.07 m x 27.43 m  x 7.70 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 900.00lbs / 408.23kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      24 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 45.00lbs / 20.41kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 21.00lbs / 9.53kg shells, 1892 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 9,351 lbs / 4,242 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   325.00 ft / 99.06 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   210.00 ft / 64.01 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   325.00 ft / 99.06 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   325.00 ft / 99.06 m   23.57 ft / 7.18 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 36,369 shp / 27,131 Kw = 22.25 kts
   Range 4,800nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,801 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   866 - 1,127

Cost:
   £1.878 million / $7.512 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,143 tons, 5.5 %
   Armour: 7,358 tons, 35.3 %
      - Belts: 3,407 tons, 16.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 283 tons, 1.4 %
      - Armament: 2,168 tons, 10.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,303 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 196 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,818 tons, 8.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,323 tons, 39.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,899 tons, 9.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31,356 lbs / 14,223 Kg = 36.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.72
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.47

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.94 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.13 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11.25 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (50 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.08 ft / 6.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 174.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 35,216 Square feet or 3,272 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 822 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.98
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

Very much!

[Tanthalas]

Revised with larger secondary guns, and 100% coal fiering



Ukranian-LBB-1906, Ukranian Light Battle Ship laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18,000 t light; 18,952 t standard; 20,265 t normal; 21,315 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   539.00 ft / 529.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   164.29 m / 161.24 m x 26.82 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      16 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline forward, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 9,535 lbs / 4,325 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   318.00 ft / 96.93 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   211.00 ft / 64.31 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   317.40 ft / 96.74 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   317.40 ft / 96.74 m   23.68 ft / 7.22 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 28,725 shp / 21,429 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,363 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   849 - 1,104

Cost:
   £1.832 million / $7.329 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,192 tons, 5.9 %
   Armour: 7,532 tons, 37.2 %
      - Belts: 3,650 tons, 18.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 417 tons, 2.1 %
      - Armament: 2,002 tons, 9.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,271 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 192 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,436 tons, 7.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,687 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,265 tons, 11.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 153 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,294 lbs / 13,288 Kg = 33.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.42

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.609
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.01 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19.17 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.00 ft / 5.79 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,349 Square feet or 3,191 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 164 lbs/sq ft or 798 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.64
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

(Cage masts are a pain to draw Just a note for future referance)

[Eugenius]

Vlodymir as completed, October 1909:

(Yes, it is crude, but I have MS Paint, so there.  :-\)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Nie drawing. The Volodymir is a nice ship. I don't like the gap between the weather deck and the top of the Upper Belt.
Comments here had made me acquire the habit of either bringing the UB up to the weather deck, or leaving 7-8 feet between them, to repsent a full deck between them.

Looking at the drawing, and thinking of the possible layut, the casematte guns all should be below freeboard.

I think i is possible to have two, at most three casematte guns firing fore or aft, so that would account for - lets us say - 5 guns on each side. And 3 firing straight outboard. (Germany ended up with a standard 7 per side, BTW). So that accounts for 8, i.e. 16 guns, all under freeboard. So I'd put the balance - 8 guns - into casemattes at weather deck level.

You could use a thing SS makes no provision for, i.e. storied casemattes. Look at the forecastles/raise of midbreak of the never finished Russian Izmail battlecruisers.

Borys

[Eugenius]

Very well, here is Volodymir with updated secondary layout.

So, if I wanted to leave the picture the same, how high do you suggest I raise my upper belt?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Half of Main Belt (half is under water) + Upper Belt = Freeboard (which I think was 15 feet).
So, either two feet to MB, or one foot to UB. As you have a 9 foot rise, a 9 foot UB would be highly appropriate.

Very nice storied casemattes :)

Is it possible to extend the upper deck a bit, almost to the back of the barbette of Berta/X turet, as to make the aft mast start one deck higher?

Borys

[Eugenius]

Thanks!  Now its off to bed...gotta design a couple of coast defense ships for the Baltic and a few groups of destroyers before I'm all caught up to 1910.

[Korpen]

A BB just ain't a BB without armor enough to stop it's own guns.
Try something with a bit more main, and a bit less upper... 6" maybe?

Well, 25cm of armour will stop a 30,5cm shell at around 90hm.