Maori Fleet

[Ithekro]

Of course it is design specific and based on a fictional land and style.  Hindsight can be one's worst enemy.

Maoria is in a seemingly unique situation of being a power that is more or less alone, yet also surrounded.   Questions on the knowledge they would have with very little combat experiance against modern opponents, and what information they would get from the outside world on others combat experiances would show how advanced their thinking would be in relation to their potential opponents.  Also their enviroment dictacts some design types that are not normal for European and American powers, and less common for Asian and other Pacific powers in some respects.  The local waters do lend themselves to smaller vessel easily it seems.  It is some disance to the nearest large body of land (roughly 3,000-3,500+ miles in any direction except south), so either the locals will have long range or decide to stay local.

[Korpen]

I will note that torpedos are still not all that effective in this time period.  Sure there are exception and anomolies that happened in the last war, but for the most part, a torpedo has in general a 10% chance to hit...usually worse. 

...And that is a generous starting point, considering so high hit as 10% was never achieved, in www2 the Japanese had a overall hit % of about 6,8%, and the UK a bit over 7% (as they shot at shorter distance).

Generally the relative positioning is of huge importance in torpedo warfare, if the target is angling away the chance of a successful hit is only a fraction compared to hitting a ship angling towards the shooter. Pure stern shot should not even be worth rolling about.

[Valles]

Maoria is in a seemingly unique situation of being a power that is more or less alone, yet also surrounded.   Questions on the knowledge they would have with very little combat experiance against modern opponents, and what information they would get from the outside world on others combat experiances would show how advanced their thinking would be in relation to their potential opponents.  Also their enviroment dictacts some design types that are not normal for European and American powers, and less common for Asian and other Pacific powers in some respects.  The local waters do lend themselves to smaller vessel easily it seems.  It is some distance to the nearest large body of land (roughly 3,000-3,500+ miles in any direction except south), so either the locals will have long range or decide to stay local.

Local waters do lend themselves? ^_^;

Anyway, the Maori do and have paid close attention to the experiences of others.

[Valles]

Thunder Rage, Maoria Support Cruiser laid down 1911 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   9,305 t light; 9,582 t standard; 13,817 t normal; 17,204 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   387.14 ft / 387.14 ft x 59.06 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   118.00 m / 118.00 m x 18.00 m  x 7.00 m

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 14,895 shp / 11,112 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 40,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7,623 tons

Complement:
   636 - 828

Cost:
   £0.420 million / $1.682 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 677 tons, 4.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,538 tons, 32.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,511 tons, 32.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 4,090 tons, 29.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28,267 lbs / 12,822 Kg = 2,196.0 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 3.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.79

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.921
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
      - Stern:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.34 ft / 6.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 49.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,017 Square feet or 2,045 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 254 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 667 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.61
      - Longitudinal: 3.60
      - Overall: 1.75
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, rides out heavy weather easily

Crew totals:
24 core crew (remain aboard at all times, including surgeon, captain, etc)
120 boat crew (8 15-man boats; serve as maintenance staff)

Cargo carried:
4000 tons fuel oil
80 tons torpedoes
10 tons derricks
800 tons MTBs
3200 tons mission-specific

Military ships carry large crews for a number of reasons, but by my understanding the biggest one is that it gives them a lot of bodies to throw at damage control. The problem is that crews need fed, trained, and paid.

The Support Cruiser concept is designed such that, given that it's essentially a civilian freighter with military cargo, it's cheap enough to be outright written off whenever necessary. How cheap, though, I'm not sure, since the rules for civilian-standard ships say that it's a quarter the usual SS-modified price, but have no instructions on how to derive that.

[P3D]

1/4th (dispacement - machinery) + machinery =>

(9305-677)/4+677 ~ 2.8BP
If misc weight representing cargo is not counted : 1.8BP *

1/4th cost + machinery x 2 = 4.2/4 + 0.677x2 = $2.4


*: by current rules misc weight must be paid with BP too

[Valles]

TD-1910, Maoria 4th Rate (Storm) laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   748 t light; 789 t standard; 895 t normal; 980 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   264.89 ft / 262.47 ft x 22.97 ft x 10.17 ft (normal load)
   80.74 m / 80.00 m x 7.00 m  x 3.10 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      12 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 258 lbs / 117 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 15,731 shp / 11,736 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 191 tons

Complement:
   81 - 106

Cost:
   £0.112 million / $0.449 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 32 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 7 tons, 0.8 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 7 tons, 0.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 421 tons, 47.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 278 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 147 tons, 16.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 9 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     264 lbs / 120 Kg = 2.6 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 0.9 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.511
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.43 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.20 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.98 ft / 0.30 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.78 ft / 4.20 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.56 ft / 4.13 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 75.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,057 Square feet or 377 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 53 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 125 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 4.48
      - Overall: 0.62
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Based both in and out of character on the Confederate F-01 design. I'll probably build at least a few of both some version of this and the Support Cruiser type, but I'm thinking that the latter will end up being the lion's share. MTBs are much cheaper for the strict torpedo delivery role, and the motherships will be good for a lot of other things. The only problem with the plan is how desperately SS will bite into their capablities...

[Korpen]

TD-1910, Maoria 4th Rate (Storm) laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   748 t light; 789 t standard; 895 t normal; 980 t full load

I think 15cm guns are a bit large for ships this size, but that has already been pointed out, so no need for further comment on that.
I think she can work she is average in most ways.
Personally, I would prefer a raised forecastle to help maintain speed in seaway, but flush decks suffer less strain in the long run.

And idea that you might want to consider is to concentrate the big guns either for or aft to concentrate the firepower as the ROF is relatively low.

From a out of game perspective I have some doubts about electric engines in such a small ship, as they weight quite a bit more the direct or gearing. Something SS does not take into account.

[Carthaginian]

Wow... I'm flattered. My designs don't usually get looked at that hard.
I'm starting to think that 28 knots is a bit slow.

Check your PM's... we might want to collaborate a bit here. ;)

[Valles]

TE-1910/B, Maoria Design Study laid down 1912

Displacement:
   997 t light; 1,026 t standard; 1,145 t normal; 1,241 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   337.56 ft / 321.52 ft x 29.53 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
   102.89 m / 98.00 m x 9.00 m  x 3.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns (4x3 guns), 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 52 lbs / 23 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 19.7" / 500 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm   321.52 ft / 98.00 m   6.53 ft / 1.99 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.36" / 60 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 0.39" / 10 mm, Conning tower: 2.76" / 70 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 1 shaft, 13,670 shp / 10,198 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 215 tons

Complement:
   97 - 127

Cost:
   £0.107 million / $0.428 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.6 %
   Armour: 209 tons, 18.2 %
      - Belts: 153 tons, 13.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 41 tons, 3.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 6 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 477 tons, 41.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 293 tons, 25.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 148 tons, 13.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 11 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     538 lbs / 244 Kg = 41.8 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.36
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 10.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 95 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.70

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.429
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.89 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.93 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 56
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.25 ft / 4.04 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 140.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 90.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,656 Square feet or 525 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 84 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 121 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.59
      - Overall: 0.56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

Started life as a clone of Italia's 30knot destroyer design, but I wanted to see if a destroyer could be armored against anti-TB guns and still keep its needed speeds. What do y'all think?

[The Rock Doctor]

The belt armor might work, but the deck armor's so thin it's not worth it.

It'd be interesting to see their performance gamed out...

[Valles]

The belt armor might work, but the deck armor's so thin it's not worth it.

Yeah. The 'in character' thing to do - what the 'real Maori' would do - would be to just crank the tonnage until there's enough weight for a decent, 10-20mm deck, but game rules forbid it, alas.

[The Rock Doctor]

Trim the belt to 50mm, and knock the range down to 4,000 nm, and maybe you can get away with it.

Note that the main battery's shell count is zero...

[Valles]

Trim the belt to 50mm, and knock the range down to 4,000 nm, and maybe you can get away with it.

Note that the main battery's shell count is zero...

Whups! Thanks. Edited the post with an improved version. I kept the fuel where it was, though - note that that range is at the Maori fleet standard cruising speed, 10 knots. At top speed she can barely manage four hundred and change.

Which, given the difference in power demands, is actually sort of surprising. I'd've expected something more like a hundred and fifty...

[Korpen]

TE-1910/B, Maoria Design Study laid down 1912

Started life as a clone of Italia's 30knot destroyer design, but I wanted to see if a destroyer could be armored against anti-TB guns and still keep its needed speeds. What do y'all think?

Interesting, but what is she to be used for? She got very low firepower, but is armoured. Slow but with loads of torpedoes, I simply do not see a natural mission for a ship with those parameters.  :-\

[Valles]

Interesting, but what is she to be used for? She got very low firepower, but is armoured. Slow but with loads of torpedoes, I simply do not see a natural mission for a ship with those parameters.

She is a destroyer, as I said. She's used for anything that you'd use the Confederate F-01 or Orange corvette or any similar ship for. Guns and speed are both admittedly within the low end of what's expected for such but still within bounds, and she's a great deal more survivable, with far less to fear from anti-TB guns than her equivalents.