Maori Fleet

[Tanthalas]

Ill assume your working at a 1-1 ratio, thats what all my ships are drawn at btw, I work entierly in photoshop.  and carth and I work on about the same scale so you might want to have a look at some of our ships to get an idea what they should look like.

[Ithekro]

Overgunned and underspeed...seems like something Rohan would do without modern engines (or more accurately what Rohan was doing before it got modern engines).  18 knots is about normal for a battleship in 1904.  Remember Dreadnought and especially the Japanese Ibuki was considered fast for capital ships at the time.

[Ithekro]

That reminds me that I've not been posting pictures of Rohan's ships like I use to (at least for the Battleships).  Mine are in Paint a 1 pixel to the foot.

[maddox]

Turret access from above means large holes on the very thick (6-8") turret roof. Below access is problematic, as the barbette is a closed cylinder, and your solution would offer entrance/exit only through the magazines. Forget leaving the turrets in any kind of hurry.

But it gives a better protected turret, doesn't it?  The crew can like that or not, if the Maorian admirality has chosen that option, it's the crew that has to suffer the inconvience.

And, if it was for France, an elevator will be installed. I'm always giving 100 tons misc weight to Crew Comfort, so 20 tons of elevators isn't to shabby. (Historicaly some of the elder predreads had elevators in the polemasts, so why not next to the munition hoists for the main turrets?)

I see advantages to the Maorian "straigth on deck" turrets.
But also glaring disadvantages. Short range engagements will always rip up her own deck planking.
Hits that won't penetrate the deck armor or the barbette will mangle the weatherdeck, giving a good chance on a jammed turret.

Get out the oxy/acy cutters boys, and wear your southwestern in lockerrooms 5 to 11.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I do not know about other fleets, I've only read about the USN in this respect, specifically the North Caroline cass. There was a debate on moving the evacuation hatches - from the customary location - in the underside of the overhang - the the turret rear. To bring the turret closer to the deck, and thus save 150 tonnes or more.

And from what I've seen, this "overhang underside hatch" could be as high as a 6-7 foot above the deck (it could be a superfiring turret, I don't know for sure). In most other pictures I see - from other fleets - that the barbette sticks out some 3-4 feet above the deck.

Check the battleship calibre guns here:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm

I would not be so worried about top hatches at this age. There was SOME 12K yards shooting in the last war. Angles of impact at that angle are almost guarantied to ricochette. And in 1906 nobody in Maoria dreamt of over 7K yard shooting, so turret top hits are under the radar, so to speak.
Borys

[Sachmle]

Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1902)
Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   282.12 ft / 85.99 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   705.38 ft / 215.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -

       - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
      - Stern:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.62 ft / 7.20 m
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia

Revised version! Elevated main turrets, upper belt added, tweaked deck armor. Lesser stability but it's not like she didn't have it to spare. Top speed is limited by the age of her machinery - 20,000 hp will only push a ship this size so fast. Range is not considered a priority; her reason for existence is to smash intruders, not to go overseas looking for trouble, and the legs she's got are plenty long enough for that.

3 things: First 150 shells is alittle extreme for a BB, you'll need to reline the barrel before you get through 150 rounds/barrel, try 80-90 max.  Second, with your layout the barbettes of your fore and aft turret are not covered by the upper belt, as it stops at least 1m prior to deck level, add in that they're raised up you'll have even more exposed barbette, therefore 27.5cm maybe a little thin, maybe 35cm, just to be safe. Don't wanna Magsplosion.  Third, While I too do not know your approved "Tech" levels, I assume since fire-control is a new to most tech that only a select few have mastered, and Maori seems to have no interaction w/ anyone prior to now, therefore no idea/need for it, I assume it's not available to you at this time.  However, I tend to over rationalize things sometimes and good be thinking the wrong way.  I just figure since Maori seems very introverted, combined w/ the home defense/Bory's comment on no farther than 7ky shooting idea, that Maorian scientists would have yet to discover, due to lack of need, this still new technology.

[maddox]

150 shells can be fired, without needing to reline the barrel.

Several things can happen/be done.
2 obvious things.
Reduced charges. For non AP shelling the most obvious option.
Live with the reduced accuracy of a worn liner.

Better to shoot inaccurate than not to shoot at all is what I think about it.

The firecontrol , it also gives better shooting at shorter ranges as it centralises the targetting. It's not only ranging that counts. But also communication and training.

Armor.  Everybody fits as is viewed. If the Maorian admirality wants armor like displayed, then the ships will be build with that armor.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Barbettes can be slightly thinner than turret faces. They are round(ish), so unless your middle name is "Fire Magnet" or similar, enemy shells have a miniscule chance of hitting "dead on".

IIRC pre-dreadnaughts usually carried 60-70 rounds of MG shells. The "dreadnaught revolution" brought this up to about 100. I've never seen any battleship with more than 120.

The turret layout to me says:
- 2x2 turrets, both raised
- 6x1 turrets

Why the Big Splash effect? Why not lower it? Aesthetics? I not - then you could lower the quarterdeck and do either a "rised f'castle" or a "rise fore of midbreak", with - in the former case - only one raised turret?

Especially a home defence navy does not need to carry much ammunition - bases are close on hand.
Turret roofs are probaby 3"? 4"? thick.

Gun life varied - the HMV + light shells were the worst, under 200 shots. The LMV + heavy shell were better, some arond 350 IIRC.

The USN APC superheavies would "deline" the barrels after 60 or 70 shots, IIRC.
Borys

[P3D]

But it gives a better protected turret, doesn't it?  The crew can like that or not, if the Maorian admirality has chosen that option, it's the crew that has to suffer the inconvience.

And, if it was for France, an elevator will be installed. I'm always giving 100 tons misc weight to Crew Comfort, so 20 tons of elevators isn't to shabby. (Historicaly some of the elder predreads had elevators in the polemasts, so why not next to the munition hoists for the main turrets?)

I see advantages to the Maorian "straigth on deck" turrets.
But also glaring disadvantages. Short range engagements will always rip up her own deck planking.
Hits that won't penetrate the deck armor or the barbette will mangh gle the weatherdeck, giving a good chance on a jammed turret.

Get out the oxy/acy cutters boys, and wear your southwestern in lockerrooms 5 to 11.

I bet there would not be enough space for another elevator next to the ladders and the ammo lifts. I just noted that all RL navies decided against putting a weak spot on the turret top/back. An the turret back usually won't face enemy battleships, and even a door can be armored against 6" guns. Later in WWII, with planes throwing AP bombs it would not be a good compromise.

[Ithekro]

Well so far there has been only a few air attacks on ships.  Three that I recall from the last war.  One destroyer sunk by an airship.  One Japanese armored cruiser damaged by airplanes, and one Brandenberg Battlecruiser damaged by airplanes (mostly it was the fire that did the damage).

[maddox]

I bet there would not be enough space for another elevator next to the ladders and the ammo lifts. I just noted that all RL navies decided against putting a weak spot on the turret top/back. An the turret back usually won't face enemy battleships, and even a door can be armored against 6" guns. Later in WWII, with planes throwing AP bombs it would not be a good compromise.

A potential solution to the "Under the overhang" hatch/height to deck issue on the Maorian BB is having hatches in the deck, 2 or 3 so the crew in the turret has 2 options.
Entry/evac trought the underoverhang hatch with the turret in a fixed position, or trough the magazines.

On the French "personel elevator from the magazine", it just uses a bigger barbette to fit all in.

[Valles]

Koikoi, Maoria Battleship laid down 1906 (Engine 1902)

Displacement:
   26,319 t light; 27,814 t standard; 29,520 t normal; 30,885 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   708.47 ft / 705.38 ft x 98.43 ft x 22.97 ft (normal load)
   215.94 m / 215.00 m x 30.00 m  x 7.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns (2x2 guns), 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 11.81" / 300 mm guns in single mounts, 823.82lbs / 373.68kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 10,092 lbs / 4,578 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   423.23 ft / 129.00 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   282.12 ft / 85.99 m   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
   Upper:   3.94" / 100 mm   705.38 ft / 215.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   2nd:   11.8" / 300 mm   5.91" / 150 mm      10.8" / 275 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   2.36" / 60 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 11.81" / 300 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, reciprocating cruising steam engines plus steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,898 ihp / 14,844 Kw = 18.00 kts
   Range 4,800nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,071 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   1,125 - 1,463

Cost:
   £2.423 million / $9.692 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,261 tons, 4.3 %
   Armour: 10,045 tons, 34.0 %
      - Belts: 4,711 tons, 16.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2,771 tons, 9.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,320 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 243 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,158 tons, 10.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,329 tons, 38.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,201 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 525 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     46,049 lbs / 20,888 Kg = 55.9 x 11.8 " / 300 mm shells or 4.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.648
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.54 ft / 0.47 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   29.53 ft / 9.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m before break)
      - Stern:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.62 ft / 7.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 176.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 53,088 Square feet or 4,932 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 780 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.11
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

250 tons assorted unplanned weights
25 tons long-range radio installation
250 tons fire control system and paraphenalia

Class of three:
Koikoi
Ririate
Whakakaha

Now, could I be an indulgence of someone to walk me through what her cost is under the sim rules? The listing in the Rules section of the forum is kinda baffling.

[The Rock Doctor]

The rules section does need some clean-up.

Happily, as a plain ol' warship, her cost is directly related to her light displacement:

26,310 t Light = $26.31

[Ithekro]

$26.31 either up front or spaced out while under construction.

26.310 BP in a Type 3 slip or dock at a maximum rate of 6 BP per half year. (1 BP of course just breaks down to 1,000 tons of material)

[Valles]

Mako, Maoria Light Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   5,264 t light; 5,536 t standard; 5,950 t normal; 6,281 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   398.34 ft / 393.70 ft x 45.93 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   121.42 m / 120.00 m x 14.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns (4x2 guns), 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      32 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
   Weight of broadside 1,236 lbs / 561 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   314.96 ft / 96.00 m   8.14 ft / 2.48 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm     78.71 ft / 23.99 m   8.14 ft / 2.48 m
   Upper:   2.36" / 60 mm   314.96 ft / 96.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      0.79" / 20 mm   314.96 ft / 96.00 m   18.44 ft / 5.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.87" / 200 mm   3.94" / 100 mm      7.87" / 200 mm
   2nd:   2.36" / 60 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.36" / 60 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 16,912 shp / 12,616 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 11.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 745 tons

Complement:
   338 - 440

Cost:
   £0.422 million / $1.686 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 154 tons, 2.6 %
   Armour: 2,255 tons, 37.9 %
      - Belts: 1,163 tons, 19.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 169 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armament: 298 tons, 5.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 570 tons, 9.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 56 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 769 tons, 12.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,901 tons, 31.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 686 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 185 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,928 lbs / 4,503 Kg = 96.4 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 1.9 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 14.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.77

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.585
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.43 ft / 0.74 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Forecastle (10 %):   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Stern:      18.04 ft / 5.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.04 ft / 5.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 132.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,041 Square feet or 1,212 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 388 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.47
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

60 tons misc weight
25 tons Marconi
100 tons fire control

Class of 8:

Mako
Ururoa
Pere
Ripi
Tope
Tuatini