New Ships of Naciones Unidas

[Borys]

If one use split ammunition, slow breaches and bagged charges (requiring dubble ramming) then yes the ROF will be much slower. If using single-motion breach, and fixed or semi-fixed ammo, the ROF sould be pretty much identical to a 10,5 (between 7 and 15rpm).

You need loaders like this:
http://kulturystyka.i64.pl/qdig/?Qwd=./Mariusz%20Pudzianowski&Qif=11.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=S

Borys

[Korpen]

If one use split ammunition, slow breaches and bagged charges (requiring dubble ramming) then yes the ROF will be much slower. If using single-motion breach, and fixed or semi-fixed ammo, the ROF sould be pretty much identical to a 10,5 (between 7 and 15rpm).

You need loaders like this:
http://kulturystyka.i64.pl/qdig/?Qwd=./Mariusz%20Pudzianowski&Qif=11.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=S

Borys

Not at all, a round weight in at between 32 and 40kg for a 12cm gun, and around 25-30 for a 105, so usally it is less then 10kg difference. If it is too tricky to handle a 12cm round, it is most likley too tricky to handle a 10cm round as well.

[Sachmle]

Springsharp never consider guns to be mounted on the portions considred forecasle, so if the three guns that are supposed to be mounted forward are to be able to fire forward, they have to be raised.

D-100 Class, NUS DD laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 786 t standard; 966 t normal; 1,109 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   331.25 ft / 328.00 ft x 29.50 ft x 8.50 ft (normal load)
   100.97 m / 99.97 m x 8.99 m  x 2.59 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount foward
      2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 130 lbs / 59 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,039 shp / 8,981 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 323 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   86 - 112

Cost:
   £0.103 million / $0.412 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.7 %
   Armour: 17 tons, 1.7 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 451 tons, 46.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 241 tons, 25.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 215 tons, 22.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     309 lbs / 140 Kg = 9.6 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.63
   Metacentric height 1.8 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 9.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.13
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.411
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.12 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.25 ft / 0.99 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 167.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,996 Square feet or 557 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 71 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 0.84
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Happy.

[Korpen]

Happy.

Very ;)
Another was to simulate would the to reduce the forcastle to around 10-15%, and raise the midbreak to forcastle height and move it to 25%.

And i know the effect on deckmouts are minimal.

[Sachmle]

As far as a more typical AC how's this?

Cervantes Class, NUS Armoured Cruiser laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10,650 t light; 11,306 t standard; 13,115 t normal; 14,562 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.00 ft / 393.00 ft x 77.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   119.79 m / 119.79 m x 23.47 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      4 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (2x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (2x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all forward
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1912 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3,542 lbs / 1,607 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   2 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   254.75 ft / 77.65 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   137.25 ft / 41.83 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     1.00 ft / 0.30 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   254.75 ft / 77.65 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   10.0" / 254 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30,041 shp / 22,411 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 8,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,256 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   612 - 796

Cost:
   £0.953 million / $3.811 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 443 tons, 3.4 %
   Armour: 4,581 tons, 34.9 %
      - Belts: 2,382 tons, 18.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,279 tons, 9.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 824 tons, 6.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 96 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,487 tons, 11.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,988 tons, 30.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,465 tons, 18.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,056 lbs / 9,097 Kg = 78.3 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.38
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.607
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.82 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m (24.50 ft / 7.47 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.28 ft / 6.18 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,272 Square feet or 2,069 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 117 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 595 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.89
      - Longitudinal: 2.83
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Korpen]

Cervantes Class, NUS Armoured Cruiser laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Not bad by itself, but what kind of work does you have in mid for her?
As I see it by 1913-14 the world will be awash in 22kts BBs and 25+kts BCs, and this ship is expensive fodder for both. Also, as I see it, she lacks any major advantage over older armoured cruiser in a fight.

Her high freeboard is nice however, and I can imagine her being nice for cap patrols (or as nice it is possible to be around there).

[Sachmle]

I don't have a use for her, I was just responding to a comment about the Caballero being a little light for an AC by showing that a heavy AC was not so superior.  I do have this little gem though.

Improved Union Class, NUS Light Cruiser laid down 1914 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   5,250 t light; 5,456 t standard; 6,147 t normal; 6,700 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   393.00 ft / 393.00 ft x 56.00 ft x 18.10 ft (normal load)
   119.79 m / 119.79 m x 17.07 m  x 5.52 m

Armament:
      2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 115.00lbs / 52.16kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 40.00lbs / 18.14kg shells, 1914 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
      2 - 2.00" / 50.8 mm guns in single mounts, 5.00lbs / 2.27kg shells, 1914 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1914 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 642 lbs / 291 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   275.00 ft / 83.82 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   1.00" / 25 mm   118.00 ft / 35.97 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   2.00" / 51 mm   275.00 ft / 83.82 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2.00" / 51 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 6.00" / 152 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 45,333 shp / 33,819 Kw = 27.75 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,243 tons

Complement:
   346 - 451

Cost:
   £0.629 million / $2.516 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 68 tons, 1.1 %
   Armour: 1,301 tons, 21.2 %
      - Belts: 651 tons, 10.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 43 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 563 tons, 9.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,808 tons, 29.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,974 tons, 32.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 897 tons, 14.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,984 lbs / 3,168 Kg = 64.7 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.20
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 13.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.02 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.82 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -14.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   24.50 ft / 7.47 m (24.00 ft / 7.32 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      23.50 ft / 7.16 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.54 ft / 5.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,217 Square feet or 1,414 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 80 lbs/sq ft or 390 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 2.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

I figure by 1914 even my scouting cruisers will need some armor protection.

[maddox]

If one use split ammunition, slow breaches and bagged charges (requiring dubble ramming) then yes the ROF will be much slower. If using single-motion breach, and fixed or semi-fixed ammo, the ROF sould be pretty much identical to a 10,5 (between 7 and 15rpm).

You need loaders like this:
http://kulturystyka.i64.pl/qdig/?Qwd=./Mariusz%20Pudzianowski&Qif=11.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=S

Borys

Hey, these men are French 140mm gunners.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Is Glorieux France an "equal opportunity" employer?
http://kulturystyka.i64.pl/qdig/?Qwd=./Mariusz%20Pudzianowski&Qif=8.jpg&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=S

The lady from that pic in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJug16NlqPk
Borys

[maddox]

Normaly, no.
But I guess she can have a talk to the recruting officer.
After she put the door on the desk or so.

[Korpen]

My plan was to use the 6" on other DD's and to at least hold off a PC/CL until the cavalry arrived/I got away. NUS hasn't developed a 5" gun yet and I thought 4" was a little light for getting the attention of smaller cruisers. The 3" are to take out TBs and should also be effective against other DDs of similar size.  She's probably more like a modern DD, with 1 heavy gun, but we'll have to see if the idea works.

K.M. De Schelde managed to come up a design mounting no less then four 15cm guns on a modified G-class ship. Whiled the practicality can be debated; the weight of shell would be impressive for a ship this small.
The oil firing version if 0,5kts faster and with better range.

IX-Class (15 USA), Netherlands Jager laid down 1909

Displacement:
   750 t light; 795 t standard; 932 t normal; 1 041 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   280,51 ft / 280,51 ft x 28,05 ft x 9,88 ft (normal load)
   85,50 m / 85,50 m x 8,55 m  x 3,01 m

Armament:
      4 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99,21lbs / 45,00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 0,31" / 8,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,02lbs / 0,01kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 397 lbs / 180 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   4 - 17,7" / 450 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,31" / 8 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15 055 shp / 11 231 Kw = 28,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 246 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   83 - 109

Cost:
   £0,128 million / $0,510 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 51 tons, 5,5 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0,5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0,5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
   Machinery: 415 tons, 44,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 263 tons, 28,3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 182 tons, 19,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 16 tons, 1,7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     234 lbs / 106 Kg = 2,3 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
   Metacentric height 1,4 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 10,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,420
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16,75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,04 ft / 5,50 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17,06 ft / 5,20 m
      - Mid (30 %):      17,06 ft / 5,20 m (9,19 ft / 2,80 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Stern:      9,19 ft / 2,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   11,62 ft / 3,54 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186,7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91,1 %
   Waterplane Area: 4 905 Square feet or 456 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 48 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 137 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,50
      - Longitudinal: 1,75
      - Overall: 0,56
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform


The design is not that serious,.. :)

[Ithekro]

Sometmes a big gun is just to intimidate one's enemies and impress one's friends.  It doesn't always have to be very useful.  I can think of at least one destroyer in recent history that had a single 8" rapid fire gun mounted on it for testing.  It wasn't all that useful, but it looked impressive.  Also various bombers fitted with huge tin weapons and Quaker Boats of the Mississippi River Campaigns come to mind as false weapons that work.

[Korpen]

Sometmes a big gun is just to intimidate one's enemies and impress one's friends.  It doesn't always have to be very useful.  I can think of at least one destroyer in recent history that had a single 8" rapid fire gun mounted on it for testing.  It wasn't all that useful, but it looked impressive.  Also various bombers fitted with huge tin weapons and Quaker Boats of the Mississippi River Campaigns come to mind as false weapons that work.

That is very true.
Also I can imagine situations were weight of shell is more important then weight of fire, fire support of troops on shore for one. Engaging extensively protected cruisers at short range is another.

[Sachmle]

During the course of conversation w/ "He who shall remain nameless" this morning it was decided to rename the soon to be built 'Rapido' Class CAs the 'Caballería Del Oso' Class. First person to figure out what that means wins nothing.

[Borys]

Bone Cavalry?