Less is More, and sometimes, More is More

[Ithekro]

Any ship encountering a like ship is generally a loose-loose situation as they are evenly matched.  That their armor can't take the firepower they have is fairly academic...the odds are even.  Sure a BB ecountering another BB is more likely to survive the encounter, but the goal of the action is to make it some one side doesn't leave.

BCs are in some ways like Tank Destroyers able to destroy large targets.  In other ways they are a light tank, designed to recon an area due to their speed.  They are not pefect, but the chances of running into an enemy BC, since they are expensive to build and operate, are fairly low compared to running into a light cruiser or armored cruiser.  And an encounter with a battleline can be decided based on the BC's superior speed to escape...hopefully before she takes damage.

I'll note that Repulse and Renown were built as BCs because it was quicker than to finish them as R-class BBs, as the British needed ships in the water quickly.  As they were built quickly their reputation as Refit and Repair was deserved.  Hood on the other hand was redesigned with the leasons of Jutland in mind, and is more of a fast battleship than a real battlecruiser.

Rohan is building BCs because they need something fast that is cheaper to build than their new battleships, but can also engage older battleships and armored cruisers in a straight fight.  She has the armor to do that much, but not to engage newer battleships, though she could probably fight it out with the Brandenburg Battlecruiser or the Swiss Super Cruisers at range without too much fear of loosing the ship.

[Carthaginian]

A very Confederate take on a battle cruiser, this ship combines good firepower, average protection, and decent speed with affordability and the ability to fit in a Type 2 drydock. She's a wet ship, but as the CSA is in tropical waters where heavy weather isn't a year-round concern, this is not viewed as a heavy drawback.


Gran Bahama, Confederate States of America Large Armored Cruiser laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   14,700 t light; 15,557 t standard; 16,347 t normal; 16,979 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   556.78 ft / 540.00 ft x 87.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   169.71 m / 164.59 m x 26.52 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      10 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (5x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 7,705 lbs / 3,495 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   325.00 ft / 99.06 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   215.00 ft / 65.53 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   162.50 ft / 49.53 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      6.00" / 152 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 40,000 shp / 29,840 Kw = 24.03 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.11 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,421 tons

Complement:
   722 - 939

Cost:
   £1.644 million / $6.576 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,042 tons, 6.4 %
   Armour: 5,179 tons, 31.7 %
      - Belts: 2,321 tons, 14.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,575 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,145 tons, 7.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 139 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,818 tons, 11.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,361 tons, 38.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,647 tons, 10.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,317 lbs / 7,855 Kg = 20.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.487
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.21 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.26 degrees
   Stern overhang: 12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.40 ft / 4.39 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 30,940 Square feet or 2,874 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 753 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.32
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Carthaginian]

The final form of the new Confederate patrol sloops, to be called the S-21 class. The ships are built to merchant standard because they don't need to carry the high-powered military engines, high-pressure boilers or extensive armor plate. The 3.5" guns are mounted on specially reinforced areas of the deck, but by and large, the ships are built in the same manner as a conventional freighter. 8 ships will be built in 1/1910, to act as command ships for the S-01's; a patrol group will be made up of 2-3 S-01's and one S-21. Any future sloop class is likely to be based on this design.

S-21, Confederate States of America Sloop laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   500 t light; 520 t standard; 644 t normal; 744 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   230.00 ft / 215.00 ft x 23.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   70.10 m / 65.53 m x 7.01 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 21.44lbs / 9.73kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1910 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 47 lbs / 21 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   215.00 ft / 65.53 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 0.50" / 13 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,500 ihp / 1,119 Kw = 16.12 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 11.90 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 223 tons

Complement:
   63 - 83

Cost:
   £0.037 million / $0.149 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 0.9 %
   Armour: 120 tons, 18.6 %
      - Belts: 88 tons, 13.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 28 tons, 4.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 2 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 105 tons, 16.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 230 tons, 35.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 144 tons, 22.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 6.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,010 lbs / 458 Kg = 47.1 x 3.5 " / 89 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.19
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.14
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.456
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.35 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.75 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (35 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Stern:      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.24 ft / 3.42 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 91.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 3,023 Square feet or 281 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 155 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 32 lbs/sq ft or 157 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.85
      - Longitudinal: 4.59
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

*NOTE: This ship is equipped with a Marconi (10 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with 4 torpedo reloads (4 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with quarters for 18 MP's (10 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with 2 ICE-powered launches (4 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with 1000 gallons of ethanol fuel (3 tons)*
*NOTE: This ship is equipped with space for palatized cargo (18 tons)*

[Carthaginian]

A new, low-cost cruiser to help drive down the cost of replacing such out of date scrap-heaps as the Little Rock. Small, cheap, and largely unarmored, but good at patrolling and anti-TB duty.

F-1910X, Confederate States of America Frigate laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   2,000 t light; 2,080 t standard; 2,306 t normal; 2,487 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   335.00 ft / 320.00 ft x 32.00 ft x 14.00 ft (normal load)
   102.11 m / 97.54 m x 9.75 m  x 4.27 m

Armament:
      3 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships, 1 raised mount
      8 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 427 lbs / 194 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,000 shp / 16,426 Kw = 26.70 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.03 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 407 tons

Complement:
   166 - 216

Cost:
   £0.249 million / $0.996 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 53 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 34 tons, 1.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 23 tons, 1.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 11 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 962 tons, 41.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 928 tons, 40.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 304 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,306 lbs / 592 Kg = 15.7 x 5.5 " / 140 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 11.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.86
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.563
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.89 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 64 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.04 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Stern:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.00 ft / 4.88 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 153.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,234 Square feet or 672 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 58 lbs/sq ft or 282 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.85
      - Longitudinal: 4.44
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Similar concept to the Italian 5x1x5".
Same comments on hoists aplly.

I'm torn on the armament. But I think the CSA's is better.

Borys

[Tanthalas]

they should look similar lol we worked on them together today.  I traded a small amount of speed for more guns, and for me its either 5" or 6" i have very few half inch guns

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Well, both should work. Although, as you know, I think that guns between 4,5' and 5,5' are not worth it :)

Borys

[Sachmle]

Nice coastal/harbour patrol vessel and could even accompany the fleet on short excusions.  Very nicely done.

[Carthaginian]

LOL... and that was my dilemma.
I could go for a ship loaded with 7-8x4.5" guns, or I could mount a few 5.5" guns to discourage cruisers with a lot of 88mm's to back them up against destroyers. I chose the latter.

I viewed the 'hoist' armor as an 'armored magazine box.'
Basically, I concentrated armor over the high explosive instead of the whole hull.
I can thin it out a bit, though. 4", as you said, would suffice nicely to stop most cruiser-caliber shells for a long time.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The latter course seems - with OTL hindsight - better.
The Germans rearmed their cruisers after the Helgoland slaughter. The KuKK was contemplating putting one or two 15cms on their Spaum's.
Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Well, both should work. Although, as you know, I think that guns between 4,5' and 5,5' are not worth it :)

Borys

Well, tastes are like the butt, split... ;)
The guns around 12cm are compromise calibres, offering good ROF combined with usefull punch and weight of shell.
On the other hand they got slightly lower ROF then smaller guns, and less weight of shell of the slightly larger 15cm guns.
As most know by now I for one like the "compromise" calibres, but I agree that the bigger guns are preferable on a cruiser.

[Sachmle]

As most know by now I for one like the "compromise" calibres, but I agree that the bigger guns are preferable on a cruiser.

But she's a "Frigate"

F-1910X, Confederate States of America Frigate laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Which is smaller than a light cruiser, by definition, and in all honesty she's really more of a destroyer leader than a frigate so 5.5"s are fine. IMHO.

[Korpen]

As most know by now I for one like the "compromise" calibres, but I agree that the bigger guns are preferable on a cruiser.

But she's a "Frigate"

F-1910X, Confederate States of America Frigate laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Which is smaller than a light cruiser, by definition, and in all honesty she's really more of a destroyer leader than a frigate so 5.5"s are fine. IMHO.

I might point out that the smallest Dutch frigate (in game) is more then four times as large, with the latest being seven times the size...
Names such as corvette/frigate/sloop can mean very different things in different countries. :)

[Sachmle]

Very true, which is why I say, IMO, she's really a DD leader, not even a frigate.

Also,

latest being seven times the size...

Who builds 14,000t frigates? How big are your Cruisers?

[Sachmle]

Nevermind, I see your "Figates" are my "Armoured Cruisers" and your "Sloops" are my "Protected Cruisers"  Usually when I use Proper ship types I infer standard US Navy, as that is what I'm familiar with. I must learn these new terms. If someone told me yesterday that a Dutch Frigate was on it's way to Buenos Aires to shell the capital I'd send a PC to kill it, now I'll send a flotilla of DDs and a BB instead.