Confederate Armored Cruiser

[Carthaginian]

Seeking to join the 'large armored cruiser' club, the Confederate Navy has set forth specifications for a large armored cruiser to serve as a command ship for it's Pacific fleet. The ship is to be capable of a relatively high speed, carry a heavy armament of long-range guns, and be armored against a long-range gun duel with a ship of equal caliber. One of the first designs submitted is this rather unorthodox one, having 5 single 12" turrets and a dozen anti-TB guns:



Haiti, Confederate States of America Armored Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   13,000 t light; 13,568 t standard; 14,881 t normal; 15,931 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   615.00 ft / 600.00 ft x 68.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   187.45 m / 182.88 m x 20.73 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      5 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns in single mounts, 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
      12 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1909 Model
     Anti-airship guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      12 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,706 lbs / 2,135 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   394.00 ft / 120.09 m   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   206.00 ft / 62.79 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   201.00 ft / 61.26 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   5.00" / 127 mm            -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 36,000 shp / 26,856 Kw = 24.05 kts
   Range 10,570nm at 10.19 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,363 tons

Complement:
   673 - 875

Cost:
   £1.205 million / $4.819 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 620 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 5,280 tons, 35.5 %
      - Belts: 3,377 tons, 22.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,021 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 777 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 104 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,636 tons, 11.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,164 tons, 34.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,881 tons, 12.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 2.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,672 lbs / 9,376 Kg = 23.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.532
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.82 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.89 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Stern:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 69.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,996 Square feet or 2,601 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 597 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.13
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Miscellaneous Weight Breakdown:
Basic Fire Control:      240t
Long-range Marconi:    25t
Flag Facilities:            25t
Admiral's Quarters:      10t

[Tanthalas]

Interesting, while im sure she fills the gap you were trying to fill dont you think perhaps fewer turrets and maybee another gun would be more usefull?

[Sachmle]

I tend to agree with Tanthalas, less is more, but more is more.  Twin turrets would let you have 8 rifles w/ the 2 superfiring forward, the Q and 1 aft. Should shorten the necessary belt length and make her a little more stable, I would think.  She is definately unique though.

[Ithekro]

Just to be weird, what about a single twin turret, either the Q turret ot the one superimposed turret so you can have a six gun broadside?  Basically at this point you have two guns forward, one gun aft and then a slight variance in the number of guns by degree until all five can bare on the broadsides.

If you do build this design, I'd suggest the follow on class have the aft funnel and central battery switched so that the ship can have two guns aft (though the  arrangement is more dangerous as a single hit could take out more than one turret I suppose (depends on the game system).

[Carthaginian]

This is just a first draft for the design, guys. ;)
It's not a set in stone production model.

Basically I took a Florida class battleship and divided by 2.
The extremely large turrets are because there are no 12" turrets in production ATM in the CSA, but my new 12" gun and my 13.5" gun are the same length and basically the same diameter. Thus, the dimensions for the single turret 12" gun are based on the 13.5" turret- and thus are overbuilt a fair bit.

There will be at least one competing design, and it will take into consideration all the suggestions I'm getting. I might add in a couple of twins for it- like the fore and aft-most turret. Most probably it'll look like this:

            single
     twin  rrrrr                      single     single 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx       rrrrr   twin



Oh, and this is also supposed to be a somewhat flawed design- not so flawed as to not be useful, but so flawed as to not be repeated... the CSA isn't going to make it a habit to build these kinds of ships, so I wanted a ship that would provide a reason not to pursue them.

[Borys]

The FC weight sub-thread has been moved to here:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1781.0

[The Rock Doctor]

Since my initial "Cool" got moved to the other thread, allow me to re-iterate:  Cool.

[Carthaginian]

Since my initial "Cool" got moved to the other thread, allow me to re-iterate:  Cool.

Appreciated!

I'm trying to concentrate on building ships that are useful, but diverge in design from OTL enough that they will be clearly Confederate, and not a reworking of USN, RN or IJN ships of the time. I view this as what would have happened if Renown and Repulse were built by the CSA half a dozen years too early.

[The Rock Doctor]

It certainly is a unique design, but likely useful; the single turrets may have a large footprint, but it also minimizes the loss of firepower as a result of turret hits.

Any thoughts on a psuedo-Courageous with 2x2 13.5"?

[Carthaginian]

It certainly is a unique design, but likely useful; the single turrets may have a large footprint, but it also minimizes the loss of firepower as a result of turret hits.

Any thoughts on a psuedo-Courageous with 2x2 13.5"?

There has been talk of such a ship over the last few years within the Admiralty.
There have been several trial designs, though none of them have ever gotten this far. Generally, the sacrifice in armor was viewed as too great to justify mounting such a small number of heavy guns. The design that actually arrived on First Sea Lord Anderson's desk had 2x2x13.5" guns and a 3" armor belt on 'ludicrously less than 10,000 tons.'

For some reason, the First Sea Lord was seen smoking cigarettes rolled in strange blue papers for a few days after the design- now unable to be located- came across his desk. ;)


EDIT: Here's the file for the ship. She's very 'Fisher-ish' if I do say so myself. She can take fire from a 6" gun, but anything bigger will toast her. This was why she wasn't built; too expensive to loose, to delicate to call her survivable.

Displacement:
   8,400 t light; 8,834 t standard; 9,863 t normal; 10,686 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 60.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 167.64 m x 18.29 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      4 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,250.00lbs / 566.99kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      10 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      9 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1906 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,255 lbs / 2,383 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   355.00 ft / 108.20 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   2.50" / 64 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         2.50" / 64 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 32,000 shp / 23,872 Kw = 24.78 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 11.69 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,853 tons

Complement:
   494 - 643

Cost:
   £1.048 million / $4.194 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 656 tons, 6.6 %
   Armour: 1,592 tons, 16.1 %
      - Belts: 716 tons, 7.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 410 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 415 tons, 4.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 50 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,455 tons, 14.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,598 tons, 46.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,463 tons, 14.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,518 lbs / 5,224 Kg = 9.4 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 13.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.96
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.39

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.523
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.17 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 36
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.20 degrees
   Stern overhang: 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.02 ft / 5.19 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,458 Square feet or 2,086 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 652 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.48
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

Oh, Ithekro... the engine/boiler room layout is the same as the historical Florida class.
Only real difference is that I have a Japanese-style trunked funnel forward instead of the USN's straight one.

[Ithekro]

Oh that doesn't bother me.  I was just commenting on the fact that a later improvement might be to make it so the Q battery doesn't have to shoot through the aft funnel at any point in time and thus increase its arc of fire.

[Tanthalas]

a plan initaly put forward by the Italian admiralty, but discarded as non functional


Italia HC-1909, Italia Heavy Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   8,813 t light; 9,280 t standard; 9,970 t normal; 10,522 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   474.06 ft / 470.00 ft x 61.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
   144.49 m / 143.26 m x 18.59 m  x 6.71 m

Armament:
     2 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (1x2 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline forward
     4 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (2x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all aft, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
     20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 4,522 lbs / 2,051 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   242.80 ft / 74.01 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   227.18 ft / 69.24 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   242.80 ft / 74.01 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 79 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

  - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,765 shp / 15,491 Kw = 21.70 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,242 tons (70% coal)

Complement:
   498 - 648

Cost:
   £0.924 million / $3.698 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 565 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 3,200 tons, 32.1 %
      - Belts: 1,555 tons, 15.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 822 tons, 8.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 743 tons, 7.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 80 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,008 tons, 10.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,940 tons, 39.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,157 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,858 lbs / 5,379 Kg = 8.6 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.73
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.553
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.70 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Forecastle (24 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (30 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (24 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.59 ft / 4.75 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,069 Square feet or 1,865 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 129 lbs/sq ft or 632 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.69
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

Oh that doesn't bother me.  I was just commenting on the fact that a later improvement might be to make it so the Q battery doesn't have to shoot through the aft funnel at any point in time and thus increase its arc of fire.

Yeah... I know.
One of the major rules of being an evil dictator is:
"Don't design ships that can shoot themselves- minions are stupid."

If there is a follow-on class, it would likely follow your advice.

[Sachmle]

It certainly is a unique design, but likely useful; the single turrets may have a large footprint, but it also minimizes the loss of firepower as a result of turret hits.

Any thoughts on a psuedo-Courageous with 2x2 13.5"?

With the prerequisite paper thin armor as well? Would be interesting, very interesting....

EDIT:I see I'm a little behind on this post. oh well.