Which to chose?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I'm still toying with the idea of two cruisers - one 3200 the other 4700. One a "flottenkreuzer" for scouting and supporting GTBs, the other for independent operations.
But now I've slimmed down the larger one, and have two versions - standard and light. The usual cruier duties - scouting, chasing merchants, supporting own and fighting enemy torpedo vessels.
Which one is better?
Borys

[Borys]

Light version:
SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   4 171 t light; 4 338 t standard; 4 845 t normal; 5 250 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   380,00 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 18,50 ft (normal load)
   115,82 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m  x 5,64 m

Armament:
      6 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 627 lbs / 284 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 130% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 34 161 shp / 25 484 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 912 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   289 - 377

Cost:
   £0,454 million / $1,814 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1,7%
   Armour: 731 tons, 15,1%
      - Belts: 466 tons, 9,6%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 22 tons, 0,5%
      - Armour Deck: 218 tons, 4,5%
      - Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 1 691 tons, 34,9%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 614 tons, 33,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 674 tons, 13,9%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 720 lbs / 1 687 Kg = 34,4 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 12,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,536
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,00 ft / 3,66 m (18,50 ft / 5,64 m before break)
      - Stern:      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,97 ft / 5,48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109,6%
   Waterplane Area: 11 779 Square feet or 1 094 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 358 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,89
      - Longitudinal: 2,97
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Heavy version:
SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   4 474 t light; 4 648 t standard; 5 175 t normal; 5 597 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   380,00 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 19,80 ft (normal load)
   115,82 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m  x 6,04 m

Armament:
      6 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 627 lbs / 284 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,00" / 102 mm   330,00 ft / 100,58 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 134% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35 600 shp / 26 557 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 949 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   304 - 396

Cost:
   £0,474 million / $1,897 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1,6%
   Armour: 903 tons, 17,4%
      - Belts: 637 tons, 12,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 22 tons, 0,4%
      - Armour Deck: 218 tons, 4,2%
      - Conning Tower: 26 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 1 762 tons, 34,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 674 tons, 32,3%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 701 tons, 13,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4 102 lbs / 1 861 Kg = 38,0 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 13,0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,535
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,00 ft / 5,79 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,00 ft / 5,79 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,00 ft / 3,66 m (19,00 ft / 5,79 m before break)
      - Stern:      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,35 ft / 5,59 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106,9%
   Waterplane Area: 11 768 Square feet or 1 093 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 361 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 3,23
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Or am I hair spliting?
Borys

[Tanthalas]

i think either would be fine honestly, im building a biger ship for the same job...

[The Rock Doctor]

I don't see much difference besides the main belt thickness.  On that basis, I think 3" is okay for the times and would go with the lighter design.

[Borys]

Intermediate version :)
The MB is as long as the hull. Is it worth it?
Borys


SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   4 474 t light; 4 648 t standard; 5 175 t normal; 5 597 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   380,21 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 19,80 ft (normal load)
   115,89 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m  x 6,04 m

Armament:
      6 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all aft
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 627 lbs / 284 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,50" / 89 mm   380,00 ft / 115,82 m   12,00 ft / 3,66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,25" / 32 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35 600 shp / 26 557 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 949 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   304 - 396

Cost:
   £0,474 million / $1,897 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1,6%
   Armour: 911 tons, 17,6%
      - Belts: 591 tons, 11,4%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 22 tons, 0,4%
      - Armour Deck: 272 tons, 5,3%
      - Conning Tower: 26 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 1 762 tons, 34,1%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 666 tons, 32,2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 701 tons, 13,6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     4 100 lbs / 1 860 Kg = 38,0 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,21
   Metacentric height 2,1 ft / 0,6 m
   Roll period: 12,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,535
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,50 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   19,00 ft / 5,79 m
      - Mid (50%):      19,00 ft / 5,79 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,00 ft / 3,66 m (19,00 ft / 5,79 m before break)
      - Stern:      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,35 ft / 5,59 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 124,4%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 106,9%
   Waterplane Area: 11 768 Square feet or 1 093 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 74 lbs/sq ft or 359 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 3,22
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

I dunno - those pointy ends of the ship probably don't provide a great deal of floatation. 

[Walter]

Considering that there are only minute differences between the various designs, I would go for the cheapest one (thus the smallest one).

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I got the light version down to 4,000 tonnes.
The main difference is 3" vs. 4" MB.

BP - 4BP a pop versus the 4,5BP a pop of the heavier version.
Price difference - 4,75$ vs 4,45$.
Borys

SMS KuK Marie Theresie, Habsburgs Kleiner Kreuzer laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   4 065 t light; 4 219 t standard; 4 718 t normal; 5 117 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   380,00 ft / 380,00 ft x 45,00 ft x 18,50 ft (normal load)
   115,82 m / 115,82 m x 13,72 m  x 5,64 m

Armament:
      6 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft
      4 - 0,43" / 11,0 mm guns in single mounts, 0,04lbs / 0,02kg shells, 1910 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 627 lbs / 284 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 170
   8 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   320,00 ft / 97,54 m   11,00 ft / 3,35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 130% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -         1,00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 4,00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 33 368 shp / 24 893 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 6 500nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 898 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   284 - 370

Cost:
   £0,444 million / $1,778 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 1,8%
   Armour: 689 tons, 14,6%
      - Belts: 427 tons, 9,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 22 tons, 0,5%
      - Armour Deck: 215 tons, 4,6%
      - Conning Tower: 24 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 1 652 tons, 35,0%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 590 tons, 33,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 653 tons, 13,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,1%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 625 lbs / 1 644 Kg = 33,6 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,23
   Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 12,8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0,522
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8,44 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,00 ft / 7,32 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Mid (50%):      18,50 ft / 5,64 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,00 ft / 3,66 m (18,50 ft / 5,64 m before break)
      - Stern:      12,00 ft / 3,66 m
      - Average freeboard:   17,97 ft / 5,48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 128,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110,1%
   Waterplane Area: 11 626 Square feet or 1 080 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 73 lbs/sq ft or 356 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,88
      - Longitudinal: 3,00
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

go with the light

[Ithekro]

How many do you intend to build?  If you plan to build a lot of them go with the lighter version as you can build 9+ for the tonnage of 8 larger ones.  If you are only building a small division or modifying the design every few years, than build the larger ones so they last.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I am thinking of laying down at least 6.
Not suffering from BP shortage ATM, and with 0,25$ difference, I'm tempted to go with the bigger ship.
Borys

[P3D]

Price difference is $0.5 by the new rules.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Must check them. I was going by what SS tells me times ten.
Borys