Iberian Reconstruction Projects

[miketr]

What do people think?  Its cheaper than a new ship but a lot of effort for whats basicly a colonial patrol cruiser

Michael

OLD SHIP

Gorilla, spain cruiser laid down 1897

Displacement:
2 893 t light; 3 000 t standard; 3 372 t normal; 3 669 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
301,84 ft / 295,28 ft x 45,93 ft x 17,06 ft (normal load)
92,00 m / 90,00 m x 14,00 m x 5,20 m

Armament:
2 - 4,92" / 125 mm guns in single mounts, 59,59lbs / 27,03kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on centreline, evenly spread
4 - 4,92" / 125 mm guns in single mounts, 59,59lbs / 27,03kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
4 - 2,95" / 75,0 mm guns in single mounts, 12,87lbs / 5,84kg shells, 1897 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 409 lbs / 186 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
2 - 18,9" / 480 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
2nd: 0,98" / 25 mm - -
3rd: 0,20" / 5 mm - -

- Conning tower: 1,97" / 50 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 288 ihp / 9 913 Kw = 21,90 kts
Range 5 000nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 669 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
220 - 287

Cost:
£0,416 million / $1,665 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 51 tons, 1,5%
Armour: 27 tons, 0,8%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 18 tons, 0,5%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0,3%
Machinery: 1 943 tons, 57,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 872 tons, 25,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 479 tons, 14,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1 066 lbs / 484 Kg = 17,9 x 4,9 " / 125 mm shells or 0,4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,85
Metacentric height 4,2 ft / 1,3 m
Roll period: 9,4 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,06
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,510
Length to Beam Ratio: 6,43 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17,18 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 16,11 ft / 4,91 m
- Forecastle (20%): 10,60 ft / 3,23 m
- Mid (50%): 10,60 ft / 3,23 m
- Quarterdeck (15%): 10,60 ft / 3,23 m
- Stern: 10,60 ft / 3,23 m
- Average freeboard: 11,04 ft / 3,36 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 197,6%
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76,8%
Waterplane Area: 9 119 Square feet or 847 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 70%
Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs/sq ft or 306 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,93
- Longitudinal: 1,93
- Overall: 1,00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

REBUILT SHIP

Gorilla, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1897 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   2,094 t light; 2,259 t standard; 3,372 t normal; 4,261 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   302.11 ft / 295.28 ft x 45.93 ft x 17.06 ft (normal load)
   92.08 m / 90.00 m x 14.00 m  x 5.20 m

Armament:
      2 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns in single mounts, 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 615 lbs / 279 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 2.95" / 75 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,000 shp / 7,460 Kw = 20.44 kts
   Range 9,200nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,002 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   220 - 287

Cost:
   £0.255 million / $1.018 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 77 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 73 tons, 2.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 59 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 833 tons, 24.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 997 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,278 tons, 37.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 114 tons, 3.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,346 lbs / 1,518 Kg = 32.5 x 5.9 " / 150 mm shells or 0.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 11.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.510
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.43 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 65
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.11 ft / 4.91 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Stern:      10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.04 ft / 3.36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 103.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,119 Square feet or 847 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 72 lbs/sq ft or 350 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.03
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weight, small radio (10 tons) + 4 torpedo's (4 tons) + construction reserve (100 tons)

Cost to do reconstruction

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 77 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 73 tons, 2.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 59 tons, 1.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 833 tons, 24.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 997 tons, 29.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,278 tons, 37.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 114 tons, 3.4 %

997
Total Cost for Rebuild
Base Refit 2893/1000*0.2 = $0.5786
New guns, armor, engines & misc weight (radio's and torpedo's) 77+73+833+14 = 997 tons
0.997 BP + $0.997
Total 0.997 BP + $1.5756

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 51 tons, 1,5%
Armour: 27 tons, 0,8%
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Armament: 18 tons, 0,5%
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0%
- Conning Tower: 10 tons, 0,3%
Machinery: 1 943 tons, 57,6%
Hull, fittings & equipment: 872 tons, 25,9%
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 479 tons, 14,2%
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0%

Scrapped from old ship guns, armor & engines, 51 + 27 + 1943 = 2021 tons
2021 / 1000 * 0.15 = $0.30315 + 0.30315 BP

Final cost = 0.69385 BP + $1.27245 rounding (0.694 BP) + ($1.272)

[Blooded]

Hello,

I am highly interested in comments on this as I have alot of Refit/Rebuilding to be done(2xCB,2xAK,1xCL,17xDD). And its driving me nuts trying to get a handle on all the possibilities.

I think it is worth it (cheaper than new) although less capable.

A few things though....
On cost, I believe that armament and engines cost is x2.
Should the Hull increase cost(872 to 997 tons)if so it would be at 1/2 cost, yes?

I have a different take on the rules.
So I get a cost of:
Refit(base at $20%): $2.5481   0 BP  6 Months
'Rebuild'(base at $25% + 10%BP): $2.69275  0.2893 BP   4.09525 Months

Notice the large difference in construction time.

I had not even thought of scrapping the old parts, is that allowed? It makes sense(except for the guns).

[P3D]

Yes, scrapping part is not forbidden. Blooded is right about that 100t hull weight increase too. The construction time discrepancy is due to having a
I'd assume the original ship was built with hoisted mounts. The new ship also has 2 more hoisted 5" mount amidship, and the 6" mount will need reworking.

Apparently the original did not have deck armor either, so it should be classified aviso/unprotected cruiser/sloop.

I think it does not worth the extra $0.6 you are paying for it. A newbuild aviso with 1905 turbines is possible on 1900t - for $1.9. And for simple presence refitting the old ship with only extra TTs and W/T installed is adequate.

[The Rock Doctor]

I am highly interested in comments on this as I have alot of Refit/Rebuilding to be done(2xCB,2xAK,1xCL,17xDD). And its driving me nuts trying to get a handle on all the possibilities.

From my perspective, the answer depends on how important speed is to the ship's mission.  VTE-driven ships will have heavier machinery and less speed than similar-sized turbine-driven ships, and the VTEs won't be able to operate at high speed for as long, either. 

So a ship intended to escort convoys, shoot at land targets, and the like may be a viable candidate for rebuilding; the use of VTEs is not a big issue.  However, I wouldn't bother with ships such as torpedo-boats unless I need them as a stop-gap until they can be replaced.

From the Gran Colombian perspective, I'm more interested in maintaining the current size of the Armada, with rapid elimination of VTE-driven ships, than in expanding the Armada and retaining the VTE-driven ships.  About the only ships I'm contemplating a serious rebuild for are the newer armored cruisers, as it will take some time to replace them.

In the case of the Gorillas - there are aspects of the design that would bother me and can't really be changed:  the low freeboard and poor accommodation/working space imply a uncomfortable vessel with degraded performance in blue water or bad weather.  Personally, I think I'd scrap them.

[miketr]

OK  I have decided not to do the rebuild and just do a simple refitt and add radio n modern torpedo's.

Base Refit 2893/1000*0.2 = $0.5786

Cost for new items; 14 misc tons (call it 4 tons again for new launchers) so 18 tons total.

New item cost is 0.018 BP + $0.018 

Thanks for the replies!

Total $0.597 + 0.018 BP

Gorilla, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1897

Displacement:
   2,907 t light; 3,014 t standard; 3,372 t normal; 3,658 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   302.11 ft / 295.28 ft x 45.93 ft x 17.06 ft (normal load)
   92.08 m / 90.00 m x 14.00 m  x 5.20 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns in single mounts, 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 4.92" / 125 mm guns in single mounts, 59.59lbs / 27.03kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 409 lbs / 186 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.20" / 5 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 1.57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13,288 ihp / 9,913 Kw = 21.90 kts
   Range 4,800nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 644 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   220 - 287

Cost:
   £0.416 million / $1.666 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 51 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 25 tons, 0.7 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 18 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 8 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 1,941 tons, 57.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 876 tons, 26.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 465 tons, 13.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,033 lbs / 469 Kg = 17.3 x 4.9 " / 125 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.74
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 9.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.510
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.43 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 23.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.11 ft / 4.91 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Stern:      10.60 ft / 3.23 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.04 ft / 3.36 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 197.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,119 Square feet or 847 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 70 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 63 lbs/sq ft or 308 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.94
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Misc Weight, small radio (10 tons) + 4 torpedo's (4 tons) + construction reserve (100 tons)