Should I bother?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I will repeat a certain query. I inherited this class of ships:

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1885

Displacement:
   4 493 t light; 4 610 t standard; 4 912 t normal; 5 154 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,00 ft / 300,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 22,00 ft (normal load)
   91,44 m / 91,44 m x 15,24 m  x 6,71 m

Armament:
      4 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 29,60lbs / 13,43kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 12,49lbs / 5,67kg shells, 1885 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      6 - 1,10" / 27,9 mm guns in single mounts, 0,62lbs / 0,28kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 197 lbs / 89 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 14,0" / 355,6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   5,00 ft / 1,52 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3,00" / 76 mm   2,00" / 51 mm            -
   2nd:   2,00" / 51 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12 254 ihp / 9 141 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 9,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 544 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   293 - 381

Cost:
   £0,510 million / $2,042 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 25 tons, 0,5%
   Armour: 781 tons, 15,9%
      - Belts: 346 tons, 7,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3,8%
      - Armament: 49 tons, 1,0%
      - Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3,8%
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 2 375 tons, 48,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 263 tons, 25,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 419 tons, 8,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1 899 lbs / 861 Kg = 64,2 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,61
   Metacentric height 3,9 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 10,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Stern:      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,62 ft / 3,85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 268,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70,4%
   Waterplane Area: 10 189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 375 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,42
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

However, these ships are actualy brand new, dating from 1900-1902.

[maddox]

For their size, to lightly armed.


Use'm up if needs be.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
As to make them in anyway useful, I'm thinking of the simplest possible modernisation.
New guns, bigger. And to buldge the ship as not have to change anything else. Simply unbolt old guns and their shields, and put new guns in their place.

ADDED LATER:
I fully agree with the "undergunnedness" of this class. The 10x140mm guns are to make them useful (?) gunboats. Maybe shielding the battleline from TB attack?


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1885

Displacement:
   4 964 t light; 5 179 t standard; 5 502 t normal; 5 760 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,00 ft / 300,00 ft x 50,00 ft (Bulges 56,00 ft) x 22,00 ft (normal load)
   91,44 m / 91,44 m x 15,24 m (Bulges 17,07 m)  x 6,71 m

Armament:
      10 - 5,50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 1,10" / 27,9 mm guns in single mounts, 0,62lbs / 0,28kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 754 lbs / 342 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   5,00 ft / 1,52 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1,00" / 25 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 13 355 ihp / 9 963 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 3 000nm at 9,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 580 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   319 - 415

Cost:
   £0,625 million / $2,500 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 104 tons, 1,9%
   Armour: 764 tons, 13,9%
      - Belts: 346 tons, 6,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3,4%
      - Armament: 32 tons, 0,6%
      - Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3,4%
      - Conning Tower: 13 tons, 0,2%
   Machinery: 2 596 tons, 47,2%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 430 tons, 26,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 538 tons, 9,8%
   Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 1,3%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1 869 lbs / 848 Kg = 24,3 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,65
   Metacentric height 4,1 ft / 1,2 m
   Roll period: 11,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,18

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5,36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Stern:      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,62 ft / 3,85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 281,7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 58,8%
   Waterplane Area: 10 189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 80%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 85 lbs/sq ft or 414 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,90
      - Longitudinal: 2,45
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Replacing the engine with a 1908 VTE gives me not only the 10x5,5" armament (or 8x6"), but also 12000nm at 12knots cruising range.
But is such an extensive overhaul realy worthwhile? Maybe just keep'em for traiing purposes and replac'em with 3500 tonne vessels ASAP?

Borys

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The "high tech" :) version:

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1885 (Engine 1908)

Displacement:
   3 417 t light; 3 621 t standard; 4 912 t normal; 5 945 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,00 ft / 300,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 22,00 ft (normal load)
   91,44 m / 91,44 m x 15,24 m  x 6,71 m

Armament:
      10 - 5,50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 1,10" / 27,9 mm guns in single mounts, 0,62lbs / 0,28kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 754 lbs / 342 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 18,0" / 457,2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11 670 ihp / 8 706 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 11 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2 325 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   293 - 381

Cost:
   £0,356 million / $1,423 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 104 tons, 2,1%
   Armour: 825 tons, 16,8%
      - Belts: 408 tons, 8,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3,8%
      - Armament: 32 tons, 0,6%
      - Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3,8%
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 1 061 tons, 21,6%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 357 tons, 27,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 495 tons, 30,4%
   Miscellaneous weights: 70 tons, 1,4%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5 432 lbs / 2 464 Kg = 70,6 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 1,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,55
   Metacentric height 3,7 ft / 1,1 m
   Roll period: 10,9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Stern:      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,62 ft / 3,85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 148,9%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 64,0%
   Waterplane Area: 10 189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 83 lbs/sq ft or 403 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,60
      - Overall: 1,02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Sachmle]

Ahoj!
The "high tech" :) version:

Armament:
      10 - 5,50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 75,00lbs / 34,02kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 1,10" / 27,9 mm guns in single mounts, 0,62lbs / 0,28kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   8,00 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

IF gonna upgrade fix flaws, no?

[Borys]

1 - what's wrong with a breech loader? I understand (maybe too narrowly) QF to mean "fixed round".  IMO calibres above 4 inches should use separate shell + case/bag.  For this ship I'm toying with a lighter shell I usually use - i.e. 75lbs versus the 100 pounder 6 incher. For easy of handling and ROF - as I 'm toying with the idea of using these ships as destroyer killers.  And I don't like 12cm/5inch weapons.

2 - I wondered about the MB myself :) - the thing is that the End Belts are identical to the MB; of course, I could alter the SS file, making the MB 300 feet long, i.e. the length of the ship 

[Sachmle]

My interpretaion of BL vs QF is that Breach Load indicates bag load and therefore is shell into breach and then powder bag into breach = slower loading, while QF meaning Quick Fire is complete round in one like really big rifle round therefore faster.  I could be wrong though.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Yopu are correct on BL and QF - but IMO above 4 inches - and in the opinion of others - above 5 inches - a fixed, complete round gets too heavy. The French Navy has the loaders for their QF 1`4cfm guns on double rations ... :)
The loaders for a QF 5,5" weapon would tire quickly, thus offsetting any gains in ROF for the first rounds.
I.e. a burst ROF of 12 rpm for a minute or two, and then 6. I prefer 8-9 rpm throughout.
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

If the ships are from ~1900, why is the design date 1885?

If you need convoy escort-type cruisers, I suppose it's adequate.  Otherwise, I'd save the funds and scrap them.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The fleet I took over was ALL designed in 1885.
:)
I spread out the construction dates, and scrapped the oldest ships. Thus I have brand new ships with 20 year old technology :D

Borys