Italia LBB-1909

[Tanthalas]

Opinions Welcomed

Italia-BB-1909, Italia Light Battle Ship laid down 1909

Displacement:
   17,568 t light; 18,462 t standard; 19,659 t normal; 20,617 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   530.80 ft / 525.00 ft x 89.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   161.79 m / 160.02 m x 27.13 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (8x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8,807 lbs / 3,995 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   280.67 ft / 85.55 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   244.32 ft / 74.47 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   280.67 ft / 85.55 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.00" / 76 mm   280.67 ft / 85.55 m   23.45 ft / 7.15 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 23,330 shp / 17,404 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,155 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   829 - 1,079

Cost:
   £1.700 million / $6.799 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,101 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 7,363 tons, 37.5 %
      - Belts: 3,308 tons, 16.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 731 tons, 3.7 %
      - Armament: 1,884 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,252 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 188 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,144 tons, 5.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,761 tons, 39.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,091 tons, 10.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     31,156 lbs / 14,132 Kg = 36.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.49

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.589
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.90 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (23 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (23 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.09 ft / 5.82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 82.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,825 Square feet or 3,142 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 818 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.69
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Secondaries in deck mounts counts as turreted secondaries, i.e. not allowed.
Twin mounts for the 3" gun, it's just too complicated compared to a single one.

Ah, and build light cruisers.

[Tanthalas]

negitive i hate light cruisers... closest ill come to them is a fast cruiser, or a Scout Cruiser as we Italians call it, and i already have a plan for one of them.  and the rules unless you changed them since i posted her said no turrets, mount and hoist isnt a turret persay.  I know your against anything you dont consider historical man, but FFS we have the Riders of Rohan.  Atleast let us have a little fun with our ships, from now on ill make it simple for you ill just copy somthing that was actualy built in the time frame.  That work for you it will sure as hell bore me to death.

Look im not trying to trash your playstyle, or make it sound less than interesting.  Im sure to you its great, and I understand you have to keep tight reign on people or the mods would get run over.  However having somthing dismissed out of hand as to technical or against the rules because someone dosnt like it is just bogus man.  We all know you want a historical sim, and i dont argue with the mods very often (ok basicly never unless im defending a ship).  When you moved special infantry to the calvery tree i didnt say anything even though it jacked my whole army around, we all know you think tech is moving to fast so you (the mods) changed (or want to change still didnt quite understand maddox on that one) how tech advance works.  my point is realy this changing rules in mid game to make it more realistic is well bogus.  if i had wanted to be a jerk and turret my secondary guns i would have just made them 8" I have the tech to do that, and added a third battery of like 3" guns for anti TB work. 

Gah I was just trying to liven up the forums >.< cause noone is posting anything while they all hold their breath waiting on the whole mess in the damn Pacific, now im all grumpy and stuff.

oh and just opend up the rules page it dosn't say you can't but it dosnt say you can either.  I took what was there as no true turrets, so i went with the next best thing mount and hoist with splinter/weather shields

[Ithekro]

I'd point out that the historical Italian Dreadnought Dante Alighieri has some twin 4.7 inch turrets (four twins to be exact) in addition to her casemate 4.7 inch guns.  This was not repeated again, but it was done.  She was laid down in 1909.

[Tanthalas]

I'd point out that the historical Italian Dreadnought Dante Alighieri has some twin 4.7 inch turrets (four twins to be exact) in addition to her casemate 4.7 inch guns.  This was not repeated again, but it was done.  She was laid down in 1909.

that was where i got the idea lol, to much time to do reserch in eng classes

[Sachmle]

Looks good overall. I thought "turrets" were mechanically trained and elevated, which requires signifigant tech, but mounts, even with the electric hoist, were still manually trained and elevated, therefore different that "Turrets". If I'm wrong I'm wrong, but that was my understanding of the "No turretted secondaries" without tech rule.

[P3D]

I'd rather have no exceptions.

Cruisers can have whatever hand-trained and elevated mounts, but battleships should have secondaries better protected than 1" plate. Just make sure that 6" fire takes out the secondaries, and  then comes the torpedo attack...

[Sachmle]

From armour perspective makes sense. 1" is kinda weak, but at least in mounts instead of casemate you have to get each gun, instead of breaking the casemate and starting a gun-crew clearing fire.

[P3D]

That's why there should be splinter bulkheads between casemates.

[Tanthalas]

true i was thinking along the same lines as Sachmle, individual survivability.  having taken a tour of a predread the gun decks on it didnt have breakers in them were just one big ass room, so i assume there was a reason for that

[The Rock Doctor]

Tanthalas, your grumpiness is shared.  I also share your sympathies on the tech issue, having run into a problem with vagueness last week.  I believe that something should only be disallowed if the rule specifically says it is disallowed.

That said, I think manually-trained twin deck mounted 5" is not a good choice of secondary battery due to the training rate and limited protection.  This would be a similar concern with the 3" mount, which I take to be an AA gun.  You want the fastest possible training rate if you're going to be shooting at an airplane.

On the Aligheri - are the secondaries true turret + barbettes, or twin mounts in enclosed deckhouses?  The latter makes sense to me with the BB's layout - much of the deck area is occupied by a turret's firing arc and blast effects, so concentrating the secondaries into tight space and protecting them against blast effects is sensible.  It just does seems unnecessary in a layout with the main battery concentrated at the ends.

[Tanthalas]

when i did it i was assuming they were powerd (mumbles about wishing he could find that post again).  the twin 3" has bene my signature gun on all my ships, it would be labeld an aa gun if SS would let me (i thought about labeling it an automatic).  No one even said boo agout it till recently, it is intended for anti zeplin work actualy as planes arnt much of a concern at the present time once again i was assuming a powerd mount (still cant find that damn post).  Anyway i was assuming they were powerd mounts from a post about cruisers, my logic was if cruiser Mount & Hoist are power driven, why wouldnt they be used on BBs and other ships aswell.  Aparently I was incorect but it wasnt posted anywhere saying otherwise so I assumed it was so.  1" armor is light i agree however like i said when I took the tour of  Mikasa the secondary gun deck was just one big open room, so my theory was to increas survivability and furture utility all in one go.  Dante gave me the idea for mount and hoist, but i ran with it within the rules to my knowlage. 

I think Dante had more than 1" armor on her mount and hoist but that was as heavy as I could use within the rules, honestly from what i could find i think the Mount & Hoist on her was more like a true turret.