Perfection?

[Tanthalas]

I have bene trying to come up with a plan to compensate for the fact that while everyone is laying down 14" BB's and BC's my best have 12" guns.   So here it is my soloution, ill tell you her flaw at the end.

Italia-BB-1909, Italia Heavy BB laid down 1909

Displacement:
   24,002 t light; 25,315 t standard; 26,650 t normal; 27,718 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   558.23 ft / 550.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   170.15 m / 167.64 m x 30.48 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      8 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 3 raised guns - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12,007 lbs / 5,446 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   275.00 ft / 83.82 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   7.00" / 178 mm   274.98 ft / 83.81 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   275.00 ft / 83.82 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 77 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.00" / 76 mm   275.00 ft / 83.82 m   25.12 ft / 7.66 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.50" / 89 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 3 shafts, 28,710 shp / 21,417 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,403 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
   1,042 - 1,355

Cost:
   £2.196 million / $8.783 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,501 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 10,942 tons, 41.1 %
      - Belts: 4,516 tons, 16.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 767 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 3,047 tons, 11.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,343 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 269 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,367 tons, 5.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,093 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,547 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     42,554 lbs / 19,302 Kg = 31.0 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 8.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.652
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (25 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (25 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.10 ft / 5.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,221 Square feet or 3,922 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 183 lbs/sq ft or 894 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: .99
      - Longitudinal: 1.55
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

She is a realy realy nice ship, but unfortunatly i dont think she is perfect... mostly due to I cant lay her down I come in about .65 over for my 1909 budget if I do.

[Borys]

Cut Upper Belt to 8 feet and you wil be able to afford her. And maybe even change turret arangement from 2x3+1x2 to 3x3.
Borys

[Tanthalas]

more like this?  if i use 13.5" instead of 14" i come in under budget... may have to, I realy like the 14" guns though lets me swap for 2x16" later if I want to.

Italia-BB-1909, Italia Heavy BB laid down 1909

Displacement:
   24,002 t light; 25,315 t standard; 26,650 t normal; 27,718 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   558.23 ft / 550.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   170.15 m / 167.64 m x 30.48 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      9 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 13,379 lbs / 6,069 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   294.25 ft / 89.69 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   7.00" / 178 mm   255.73 ft / 77.95 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   294.25 ft / 89.69 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 82 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.00" / 76 mm   294.25 ft / 89.69 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.50" / 89 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 3 shafts, 28,940 shp / 21,589 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,419 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
   1,049 - 1,365

Cost:
   £2.247 million / $8.988 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,672 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 10,725 tons, 39.9 %
      - Belts: 4,425 tons, 16.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 817 tons, 3.0 %
      - Armament: 2,855 tons, 10.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,356 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 271 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,378 tons, 5.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,288 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,637 tons, 9.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,256 lbs / 18,260 Kg = 29.3 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 7.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.658
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (23 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (23 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.09 ft / 5.82 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,458 Square feet or 3,944 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 186 lbs/sq ft or 907 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.56
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

13.5" version

Italia-BB-1909, Italia Heavy BB laid down 1909

Displacement:
   23,390 t light; 24,592 t standard; 25,900 t normal; 26,947 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   558.23 ft / 550.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   170.15 m / 167.64 m x 30.48 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12,103 lbs / 5,490 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   281.16 ft / 85.70 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Ends:   7.00" / 178 mm   268.82 ft / 81.94 m   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   281.16 ft / 85.70 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 79 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.00" / 76 mm   281.16 ft / 85.70 m   24.84 ft / 7.57 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.50" / 89 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 3 shafts, 28,020 shp / 20,903 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,355 tons (50% coal)

Complement:
   1,020 - 1,327

Cost:
   £2.176 million / $8.705 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,513 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 10,445 tons, 40.3 %
      - Belts: 4,356 tons, 16.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 775 tons, 3.0 %
      - Armament: 2,746 tons, 10.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,304 tons, 8.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 264 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,334 tons, 5.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,897 tons, 38.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,511 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,529 lbs / 18,383 Kg = 32.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 7.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.634
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (24 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (24 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.10 ft / 5.82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 41,514 Square feet or 3,857 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 182 lbs/sq ft or 889 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.57
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Both are good.
Borys

[Tanthalas]

ahh but i can afford the 13.5 version ^.^

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Do you have such a gun?
The CSA has a fine design for a 13,5" gun.
As to the "money gap" - you can out aside money in 1/1909, and lay her down in 2/1909. For simplicity and transparency we do not carry over $ nor BP from one year to another, but we can from 1st to 2nd HY.
Borys

[maddox]

France can supply the 13.5" gun, as it did for others.     :) ;) ;D

[P3D]

If you are using half oil firing, then 6000@10nm range is inadequate.

[Carthaginian]

The CSA is balls-out on construction ATM. ;)
Thanks to the HK, we are going to be building so many torpedo boats that there will be more torpedo rams listed in our phone books than 'Smith's. ;) Should any alien being from the neighborhood of Betelgeuse land in the CSA and be looking for a widely-used and unassuming name, he might accidentally pick 'Konfedaerater' by mistake. :D

France can get this contract. :)

[Tanthalas]

If you are using half oil firing, then 6000@10nm range is inadequate.

, 6000@10 is my standard, why should I bother building longer range ships? Like all italian heavy ships Protection and firepower are the focus.  I plan on employing a slow hard hiting battle line with a fast lightly armd scouting force. (in warhammer 40K it was known as a 1st and 13th army)  it may take them slightly longer to get to location, but when they do, the fast scouting force would be employed to hold the enemy away from the heavy units which would operate at optimim range, pounding the oponent into scrap. (atleast that is the theory ^.^)

[P3D]

Just because oil-firing ships can usually maintain higher speeds than coal-firing ones. And at 14kts your range will diminish.

[Tanthalas]

Just because oil-firing ships can usually maintain higher speeds than coal-firing ones. And at 14kts your range will diminish.

True but my entire battle line at this point is coal fired, this would be my first bb employing more that a 70/30 split

[Ithekro]

Perhaps 6,000 nm at 12kts?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
My geostrategic position is identical to Italy's. I consider
Range 6,600nm at 10.00 kts
to be perfectly adequate.
Borys