SS-3 and a Possible problem... oh and a NEW ship!

[Tanthalas]

Well after using SS-3 for a week I like it a lot, and there lies the problem.  Due to how SS3 lets you figure the guns and what not I have come up with a ship.  While according to SS3 it would have been possible in 1909 with my tech, im not sure it is at all realistic (no one built one like her that I can find and they would have im sure).  So im going to ask is it acceptable to use SS3 or not in its current form.  And now the Beast

Italia-BB-1909, Italia Heavy BB laid down 1909

Displacement:
   17,147 t light; 18,450 t standard; 19,500 t normal; 20,340 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (525.86 ft / 518.80 ft) x 85.30 ft x (26.00 / 26.91 ft)
   (160.28 m / 158.13 m) x 26.00 m  x (7.92 / 8.20 m)

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm 45.0 cal guns - 1,383.70lbs / 627.63kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts , 1909 Model
     2 x Triple mounts on centerline ends, evenly spread
     2 x Twin mounts on centerline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm 45.0 cal guns - 63.03lbs / 28.59kg shells, 300 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts , 1950 Model
     16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm 45.0 cal guns - 13.62lbs / 6.18kg shells, 300 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck and hoist mounts , 1950 Model
     2 x 2 row quad mounts on centerline, aft deck aft
      2 raised mounts
      16 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts , 1950 Model
     8 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 14,958 lbs / 14,958 kg

Armor:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   273.62 ft / 83.40 m   11.08 ft / 3.38 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   245.16 ft / 74.72 m   11.08 ft / 3.38 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   273.62 ft / 83.40 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   273.62 ft / 83.40 m   24.44 ft / 7.45 m

   - Gun armor:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armor deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 23,157 shp / 17,275 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,890 tons (70% coal)

Complement:
   824 - 1,072

Cost:
   £1.625 million / $6.499 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,921 tons, 9.8 %
   Armor: 7,356 tons, 37.7 %
      - Belts: 2,899 tons, 14.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 247 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armament: 2,237 tons, 11.5 %
      - Armor Deck: 1,785 tons, 9.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 187 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,124 tons, 5.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,535 tons, 38.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,353 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.5 %
      - Hull below water: 100 tons

Overall survivability and sea keeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,508 lbs / 13,385 Kg = 21.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.84
   Sea boat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.50

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.593 / 0.598
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.78 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   23.63 %,  23.00 ft / 7.01 m,  22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  22.00 ft / 6.71 m,  22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Aft deck:   22.74 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarter deck:   23.63 %,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m,  14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:      18.38 ft / 5.60 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 32,160 Square feet or 2,988 Square meters
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 821 Kg/sq meter
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.90
      - Longitudinal: 1.71
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, and compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather


I find it highly unlikely that if this could have been built someone wouldn't have built it.  Although if everyone Aproves I intend to build her.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Looks a tad overgunned. Her nearest "real" counterpart is the ersatz Monarch class.
We don't use SS3 yet, preferring the known quirks over the unknown :)
IMO the belts are too shallow.
Borys

[Carthaginian]

Someone DID build that ship:


She's virtually identical (layout-wise, anyway) to the OTL USN's Nevada class.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I am so Habsburg focused that I overlooked the Nevada :)
Which was what - 27,000 tonnes standard?

Borys

[Carthaginian]

Ahoj!
I am so Habsburg focused that I overlooked the Nevada :)
Which was what - 27,000 tonnes standard?

Borys

Therebouts...

[Tanthalas]

and that is my issue... when i put in the dimensions for her ss3 spit out a realy low weight number (ss always seems a tad low on weight projections imo but this was realy extream)  normaly i work my ships up in ss3 then convert them to SS2 to post.  but this one triped me out so bad i had to post it as it was lol.

[Tanthalas]

ok same ship in ss2, had to gain some weight, only real downside is her stability is a little low

Italia-XBB-1909, Italia Heavy BB laid down 1909

Displacement:
   18,500 t light; 19,606 t standard; 20,700 t normal; 21,575 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   531.41 ft / 525.00 ft x 85.30 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   161.97 m / 160.02 m x 26.00 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      10 - 14.00" / 356 mm guns (4 mounts), 1,372.00lbs / 622.33kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all aft, all raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 14,778 lbs / 6,703 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes (2 twin mounts midship on sides)


Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   290.22 ft / 88.46 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   234.76 ft / 71.55 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   290.22 ft / 88.46 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   290.22 ft / 88.46 m   24.71 ft / 7.53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      12.0" / 305 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 24,157 shp / 18,021 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,969 tons (70% coal)

Complement:
   862 - 1,121

Cost:
   £1.825 million / $7.301 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,212 tons, 5.9 %
   Armour: 8,133 tons, 39.3 %
      - Belts: 3,178 tons, 15.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 265 tons, 1.3 %
      - Armament: 2,639 tons, 12.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,856 tons, 9.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 195 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,173 tons, 5.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,747 tons, 37.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,335 tons, 11.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
   37,681 lbs / 17,092 Kg = 27.5 x 14.0 " / 356 mm shells or 4.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.79
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.622
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.15 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (50 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.32 ft / 5.89 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 138.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,439 Square feet or 3,107 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 166 lbs/sq ft or 809 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

thoughts?

[P3D]

Above water torpedoes are not a really good idea on a battleships. They would explode at the second or third splinter hit the latest.

Tonnage is low, but your speed is low and armor is on the weak side. Stability marginal. 1" TB is useless. Too many RPG.
3" guns should be in single HA deck mounts without hoists.

[Desertfox]

A yes, the Torpedo Exploding Myth. Looking at evidence, regular torpedoes did not explode when hit, only the Japanese, pure Oxygen powered, Long Lances did.

However I still wouldn't put TT aboard BBs, simply because by the time you get close enough to use them, they will have been turn to scrap.

[P3D]

A yes, the Torpedo Exploding Myth. Looking at evidence, regular torpedoes did not explode when hit, only the Japanese, pure Oxygen powered, Long Lances did.

However I still wouldn't put TT aboard BBs, simply because by the time you get close enough to use them, they will have been turn to scrap.

So not 100% occurrence means 0% chance?

[Desertfox]

Sure it's possible, but I would say very rare. There are plenty of documented cases where regular torpedos where hit and they did not explode. The only documented cases of torpedo explosions where Long Lances getting hit in the Oxygen tank, and Hydrogen Peroxide experimental torps.

[Carthaginian]

Armor seems to be ok, considering that a 14" battleship would be outside the 12" gun's effective range, or even the 13.5" gunned one for that matter. Granted, it's not astounding, but it's OK.

The torps I don't like too much, but I gotta agree with DF *searches for signs of impending apocalypse*. If the evidence supports that it's not a giant, PROVEN danger, then it's not a danger.

It's widely believed that smoking around gasoline causes explosions. This is so much the case that you can't smoke while pumping gas. This is, of course, a moron's law; how many gas stations exploded because someone was smoking around them? I never heard of one, nor has anyone I know of.

Same about the torps. Common sense would say that it's dangerous, but even common sense doesn't take into consideration just how hard to set off explosives are. You can throw C4 around like Play-Dough... I've done it. You can stick a detonator in it and continue the game of hot potato... I've done it. But till you run a current through that detonator, nothing happens. Throw it in a fire, and it just kinda burns/melts.

Hell, throw GUNPOWDER on a fire, and it just goes *poof*.
No pressure, no explosion.

Kerosene is a very stable fuel, for a petroleum distillate. You can throw it on a fire and it just burns. It don't even flash like gasoline- it just gets hot and burns. This in itself kinda dashes the 'one hot splinter' theory that you're throwing out there... that one splinter would like as not just make the tank leak, with the remaining kerosene dripping out and burning as it leaked ONLY if a fire already existed.

You're being a bit oversensitive on this issue, P3D, as far as I can tell.

[Ithekro]

I don't know.  Basic Pre-dreadnought set of rules has torpedo tube criticals as a possible hit.  "If" there is a torpedo in the tube there is a secondary explosion.  This is true for above and below water tubes.  The below water tube hits have to be able to penetrate the belt armor while the above water only have to penetrate the battery armor.  The underwater explosion does more damage to the ships than the above water explosion.

What few rules I've seen that involve the "Long Lance" from World War II, a similar type of hit is involved, but this also starts a fire of some kind.  Most rules sets have World War II Japanese damage control at being slightly inferior to the other powers, so this fire could cause a lot of damage if they fail to put it out repeatedly.

[Tanthalas]

Ithekro what do you think of the ship over all though? the torp issue is an easy change.  im more interested in your opinion of the ship as a whole.

[Ithekro]

Her main belt seems short.  A drawing would help to see if the belt actually covers from the first turrret to the aftermost turret.  That also way she is lighter than Nevada as Nevada was an "All or Nothing" Battleship with thick as possible armor everywhere, or slinter shields/structural/deck armor.  Her belt was probably longer than normal, double tall and 13.5" thick.  Her turrets, barbettes and I think her conning tower were even thicker, up to 16 and 18 inches of armor.

Since this ship is armed with 14" guns, it might be wise to armor against her own guns (12" of armor might do it), or at least armor to counter French 340mm cannon shells at range.  The length and depth of your armor is probably correct for the time period (this is not an "All or Nothing" battleship), but you might want to check the length again anyway.