The Mithlond Conference, July 1908

[Ithekro]

"That may be, however as noted the Dutch still currently own the East Indies.  That is unless something has been happening being closed doors the last few days.  Would the gentleman from the Neatherlands care to make comment of this or a statement?  Or would he pleasure us with returning to the matter that brought you all to Mithlond to begin with, the ending of the present war?"

[Walter]

Japan has not commented on this document of late.

OOC: How was I supposed to give any comments on the document with the thread locked?

IC: How was I supposed to give any comments on the document with the doors to the building locked?

:)

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Praeger got up. "It is my opinion that either the Alliance signs a peace treaty as an alliance or the Alliance stays at war as an alliance but it is my professional opinion that peace is the best (and only) way to go right now. My signature will appear on the peace treaty once all other members of the Alliance and the Swiss have signed it. I suggest we come up with something that is acceptable to all parties involved and that all parties involved will sign..."

[The Rock Doctor]

I give up.

When the wars and the peace conferences are over, perhaps somebody could email me.

Thank you,

J

[Desertfox]

"Apparently it is a new fashion to sell land that one not yet owns but others dispute in order to drag third parties into the dispute. "

OOC OK so if I don't sell the DEI I'm screwed, if I do I'm screwed. So what should I do? I try to solve this problem before it becomes a problem and now Im a thieving pirate for it. Heck Im not even getting payed for it.

[P3D]

"It's a strange solution to political problems to start with creating two bigger ones due to some shortshighted greed."

[maddox]

OOC, you still can do what you please Desertfox. 

It's a round of diplomatical poker and you're holding a full house. Do you call, or fold? 
Or for that matter, what does the dealer, The Dutch?

[size=8pt]History has proven that Nverse France is an impotent blind stupid banana munching gorilla.[/size]

[Desertfox]

Shortsighted greed? The deal with the Iberians-Columbians has me giving away most of the DEI without so much as a penny in return.

Oh I know what I'm going to do, just saying that if I sell them before I have them I get blasted, if I don't sell them I still get blasted. *grumble* NS is starting to really hate 'peace' negotiations.

[Ithekro]

OOC:  (DF you seem to be reacting to Orange more that the rest of us.  Orange, in terms of what is going on here, doesn't matter.  Ignore them and move on.)

Basic problem.  Being sold something that shouldn't be sold and then dividing it up before it is officially owned.  Second problem:  Others reacting to  the concept of the first sale before the transaction has taken place.  Basically everyone is reacting before there is direct knowledge of if the Dutch sale of the East Indies is real, or a threat directed towards the rest of the Alliance for turning their backs on them.

Has the Alliance attempted to solve the problem?  The Japanese clearly mention their take on the all or nothing principle in terms of peace and war.  So let us find the root of the problem.  Oh yes, the seperate peace treaty is at the heart of this isn't it.  (with the Swiss stubborn stalling being a close second)  Half of the alliance is spent and wants the war to end, the other half seems willing to end the war, but only if it is done together (and with additional terms).  Perhaps the Alliance should do something about it?

(In terms of the sim, it is quite clear that the majority want the war to end to that we can move forward at a faster pace and allow more people to be involved without being bored all the time.  The seperate peace was an attempt to do so.  It has failed.  Clearly something else is needed as this sale of Dutch lands will not work unless the Swiss and French come to an agreement (which is possible if they both work at it).  I do not want a hand wavem solution, but I would encourage all parties involved to be more expediant in negotiating a peace.  Continued war is not a viable option is terms of continuation of the sim, as we have lost several people during these last two half years than we probably shouldn't have.)

(It is time to stop playing around and get this done.  We have people that want to play and can't because we are stuck here.  I don't care about bruised egos or your counties' surrealistic ideas about how the war is going.  Finish this with an acceptible peace one way or the other, but there must be a peace of some sort.)

[miketr]

Don Carlos Rubio y Cabeza stands, "Gentlemen and lady a number of statements have been made about Iberia from France a number of them very strange in deed.  Let me see..."  The Iberian Ambassador to Rohan looks down at some notes he has just scribbled before continuing, "Ah let me see.  Iberia has been bought buy the Swiss with offers of the Netherlands East Indies to be party to a Swiss Military Alliance.  Since my government is now viewed as a common street walker France then suggests that they buy us off in turn with a vague offer of compensation elsewhere.  Also that Iberia has committed the crime of dealing openly with New Switzerland.  Lastly the French ambassador makes some type of appeal that we are in Frances debt..."

The ambassador shakes his head sadly, "I have been in diplomatic service for several kings and now several nations as my homeland has scene a great deal of change over the last few years.  Still with all my years of diplomatic service I can't recall the last time I was directly privy to such a collection of... statements.  As to your allegations let me respond."

Don Carlos looks directly at the French Ambassador and as he makes his points counts them off on his left hand.

"One, Iberia approached New Switzerland on our own to buy part of the Netherlands East Indies and not the other way around.  From what I understand of events Gran Colombia did the same and then became aware of this fact shortly afterwards.  At this point His Excellency Eduard Torres and myself entered into joint discussions with the New Swiss Delegation.  Soon after we became aware of, France's issues with New Swiss ownership over the area in question.  I then saw to it to pass the details of our talks along to the French Ambassador out of respect for his nations concerns.  My government and myself received no substantive reply.   All we offered in exchange for the areas in question as the Swiss Representative as already stated was to assume 1/3 of the responsibility for the $200 payments due to the Netherlands once there own deal is concluded.  Other questions on such issues as port access and some exchange of territory else where was discussed but those were separate from the main talks.  

Two, as to the idea that my government can be bought, why it is so strange a concept for the French government to accept that we might be worried about our communications to the Philippines just as France is worried about its own with Indo China.  Especially as we had been running convoys to the Philippines with the aid of the French navy.  We did not approach the Swiss out of greed but out of nations own legitimate worries over its security.      

Three, the Treaty of Madrid 1905 is now two and half years old.  This treaty ended the state of war between Iberia and New Switzerland and restored normal diplomatic relations.  This was done openly and while some nations such as the Middle Kingdom did object my government's responsibility is foremost to the Empires subjects.  Fighting a war foreign war after a brutal civil war and invasion was not viewed as a wise idea.  An agreement was made and both parties have honored it's terms and as such my nation has no regrets other than that our intentions have been misunderstood and misconstrued.      

Four, if France believes that it's Iberia's friend is and has been acting in my nation's best interest then they can start acting the part.  When you have a problem or concern then your government can speak plainly about it or speak at all for that matter."

The Ambassador pauses to drink a glass of water before he continues, "Continued war is no ones interests and all parties should keep that in mind.  Also that several nations have very real concerns and interests and other parties need to keep that in mind."

The ambassador returns to his seat.

[P3D]

deleted

[miketr]

OOC reply to Ithekro

I agree that the sale of the Netherlands is crazy, I suggest to you and the other mods that if Korpen / Netherlands really wants out of the area then to instead break the area up and sell it off bit by bit to the highest bidder.  This would respect Korpen's wishes to bail on the area.  As already stated I would understand if Korpen / Netherlands refused to accept bids from certain nations such as Iberia / Me.  After all our relations are about as bad as possible.

As to the idea of other nations / players shouldn't have responded already.  The form of Korpen's statement as I recall was a general and open one.  It included such things statments about backstabing allies and hostile Iberia.  I see no reason why this was what it was, open season for everyone to react to it.  

I agree that most people want this to end so we can move on.  At the same time people have issues so we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Michael

[Tanthalas]

OOC: Korpen you think Borys wanted to make Peace? I personally really doubt it, this was more of taking one for the team.  We all suspect there will be another war in the region in 2-5 years, the only real question is who will the active participants be.  My interpolation of your actions is that you don't plan to be one of them.  Which is fine, I also tend to agree with mike that selling your former holdings piecemeal is proly a more realistic approach, which is what I advocated from the start.

Mike you made me quite angry the other day just a FYI, before borys locked the thread I was still trying to find a way to end this mess without a war (true wars aren't my style, I prefer Controlled Conflicts), and you basically told me to shut up and but out.  Now I know why but you all have to realize that France Views Iberia as unfriendly at best, and GC isn't much better.  I personally doubt that they would view either sitting across their lines of communication as a "Good thing" (honestly I doubt that anyone save France sitting across their SLOC would be viewed as a good thing).

Should the talks have failed completely to bring about Peace, Italia was prepared to take measures to prevent the allies from continuing the war as they were.  This would have included some if not all of the following actions, closing the med to Borys ( it would have been bloody but I think I could have done it), Invading DKB holdings around mine in Africa (would have been relatively simple), Attacking DKB and Austria in South America (not sure how that would have gone honestly).  I was however happily surprised by the initial alliance offer, however I was rather depressed by the unwillingness to negotiate or trade that was displayed. 

I as a Marine am by nature a man of action, I firmly believe that it is easier to ask Forgiveness than to ask permission.  Korpen you never to my knowledge offered a position until the treaty was agreed upon by all the other parties, then you came in and said it was not acceptable to you basically torpedoing what everyone else had worked on.  If this was planed or not I don't know, all I have to go on is your posts.  My original stated opinion is that you shouldn't sell at all, I stand by that opinion.  However if you are determined to sell, Reconsider and DONT SELL (it just causes to many headaches, trying to sort it out)

DF if the sale continues my advice would be to keep as much of it as possible, break off enough to keep France off your back, place it in French hands or whoever the French decide should get it.  The only problem with this plan is MK, and im fairly sure if you convinced MK you would play nice (pretty things for the empress?) that they would let it stand, perhaps an International antipiracy fleet based somewhere in NS holdings?  Or perhaps a buffer "neutral zone" between the 2 empires, or a combination using both.  OTL the US is still at war with North Korea, yet there hasn't been any real action since the conclusion of the Korean conflict.  Perhaps something along these lines would allow for a cessation of hostilities with you and MK.

Well that's my 2 cents worth, back to homework >.<

[P3D]

It's hard to convince a party that was so pissed of Swiss actions before that it refuses to acknowledge even the existence of NS.

[Korpen]

OOC: Korpen you never to my knowledge offered a position until the treaty was agreed upon by all the other parties, then you came in and said it was not acceptable to you basically torpedoing what everyone else had worked on.  If this was planed or not I don't know, all I have to go on is your posts. 

Still OCC: I was perfectly clear on my central demands from the first discussions about a peace treaty, and all in the alliance was well aware of them (which med it quite annoying when they kept suggesting or agreeing on things they beforehand knew i could not accept). And i did not shoot down any treaties, the Netherlands made exactly three real demands, cancellation of Kra, compensation for a destroyed base (and that that point Austria seemed to forget on which side they were and started negotiation on behalf of the Swiss) and that the treaty should not mess thing up by dragging in third parties in the text. Compared to some of the other demands made by the allies i do not consider what the Dutch asked for extreme in any way.

[P3D]

How can a peace treaty with New Switzerland force Siam not to seek any new parties instead of the Swiss to finish the canal?