follow on to my 1906 cruisers

[Tanthalas]

thoughts apreciated

Italia HC-1909, Italia Heavy Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   9,753 t light; 10,238 t standard; 11,000 t normal; 11,609 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 64.00 ft x 23.00 ft (normal load)
   149.35 m / 149.35 m x 19.51 m  x 7.01 m

Armament:
      6 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (2x3 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (2x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 3,808 lbs / 1,727 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   290.57 ft / 88.57 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   199.41 ft / 60.78 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   290.57 ft / 88.57 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 37,620 shp / 28,064 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,371 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   536 - 698

Cost:
   £0.999 million / $3.998 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 476 tons, 4.3 %
   Armour: 3,431 tons, 31.2 %
      - Belts: 1,843 tons, 16.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 705 tons, 6.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 798 tons, 7.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,844 tons, 16.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,902 tons, 35.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,247 tons, 11.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,759 lbs / 5,334 Kg = 23.5 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.534
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.66 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (30 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.56 ft / 5.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,556 Square feet or 2,003 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 119 lbs/sq ft or 579 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.58
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[P3D]

Few main guns.

[Desertfox]

Hasn't stopped anyone from calling the Schanhorts the best BCs around.


Once again Im struck by the similarities between this ship and one I designed some time ago:

Apart from dimensions and minor differences in secondaries and belt armor, the ships could be twins.

Jerusalem, New Zion (Swiss designed) Battle Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   9,900 t light; 10,465 t standard; 11,055 t normal; 11,527 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   552.19 ft / 550.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 20.10 ft (normal load)
   168.31 m / 167.64 m x 21.34 m  x 6.13 m

Armament:
      6 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3,972 lbs / 1,802 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 149
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   305.00 ft / 92.96 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   245.00 ft / 74.68 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   305.00 ft / 92.96 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 85 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35,827 shp / 26,727 Kw = 25.00 kts
   Range 5,700nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,062 tons

Complement:
   538 - 700

Cost:
   £0.992 million / $3.966 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 497 tons, 4.5 %
   Armour: 3,013 tons, 27.3 %
      - Belts: 1,287 tons, 11.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 734 tons, 6.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 949 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 43 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,629 tons, 14.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,622 tons, 41.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,155 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 140 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,787 lbs / 6,707 Kg = 29.6 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.56
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.29

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.64 ft / 5.38 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,652 Square feet or 2,383 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 125 lbs/sq ft or 608 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ithekro]

Well this is not exactly a capital ship.  This is more like a 1909 version of a "treaty" cruiser armed with 10" guns and being fully armored.  the disadvantage of this is the low rate of fire verses cruisers with more guns and hitting power verses capital ships.

[Tanthalas]

well i built the 1906 heavy cruiser.  Honestly i dont plan to build true battle cruisers, and when i built the 1906 cruisers they were some of the toughest ships afloat (granted i had the benifit of seeing what everyone else was feilding in 1908 and planing acordingly).  I started with that ship and to make it faster than 21 kts i had to enlarge it, and that is what bugs me under 10k tons its inovative at 11k tons its just sort of boring.  Im not sure the speed gain is worth it ya know

[maddox]

Remember who your most possible enemies are.

France doesn't have many heavely armored cruisers around, and the amount of BB's is diminishing steadely....

[Ithekro]

On a similar thread, Austria's fleet is generally outdated (and presently engaged elsewhere it seems), The Ottoman and Caliphate fleets are decidedly antique for this age.  Iberia is probably the most solid force left in the region (That is not France) and they are more or less playing catchup.  Anyone else in the region would be operating from outside the Mediterranean Sea (Russians from the Black Sea for sure).

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Give me 5 years :)
I will have the bestest fleet and will pwn!

As to Russia - it has a base at Gibraltar :)

Borys

[Tanthalas]

another proposal (almost a battle Cruiser I think)

Italia-HC-1909, Italia Heavy Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   12,753 t light; 13,514 t standard; 14,410 t normal; 15,127 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   504.19 ft / 500.00 ft x 72.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   153.68 m / 152.40 m x 21.95 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      9 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3x3 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      14 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (3x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
      28 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (14x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,462 lbs / 2,477 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   311.50 ft / 94.95 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   188.48 ft / 57.45 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   311.50 ft / 94.95 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 51,487 shp / 38,409 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,613 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   656 - 854

Cost:
   £1.373 million / $5.493 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 683 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 4,096 tons, 28.4 %
      - Belts: 1,931 tons, 13.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,174 tons, 8.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 888 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 102 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,524 tons, 17.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,351 tons, 37.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,657 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,878 lbs / 6,749 Kg = 29.8 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.76
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.94 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (19 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (50 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.58 ft / 5.97 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 135.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,994 Square feet or 2,229 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 685 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.19
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Tanthalas]

Hasn't stopped anyone from calling the Schanhorts the best BCs around.


Once again Im struck by the similarities between this ship and one I designed some time ago:

Apart from dimensions and minor differences in secondaries and belt armor, the ships could be twins.

just goes to show we think along the same lines i supose

[Tanthalas]

This i actualy kind of like

Italia BC-1, Italia Battle Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   12,105 t light; 12,808 t standard; 13,660 t normal; 14,342 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   527.23 ft / 520.00 ft x 71.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
   160.70 m / 158.50 m x 21.64 m  x 6.71 m

Armament:
      8 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3 mounts), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      14 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (3x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 4,956 lbs / 2,248 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   291.51 ft / 88.85 m   10.11 ft / 3.08 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   228.47 ft / 69.64 m   10.11 ft / 3.08 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   291.51 ft / 88.85 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   2.00" / 51 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 43,609 shp / 32,533 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,534 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   631 - 821

Cost:
   £1.243 million / $4.973 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 620 tons, 4.5 %
   Armour: 4,125 tons, 30.2 %
      - Belts: 1,805 tons, 13.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,191 tons, 8.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,030 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 98 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,138 tons, 15.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,123 tons, 37.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,555 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,891 lbs / 7,208 Kg = 31.8 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 3.3 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
     and transom stern
   Block coefficient: 0.589
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.00 ft / 0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   23.00 ft / 7.01 m
      - Mid (40 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.29 ft / 5.57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,838 Square feet or 2,586 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 636 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.47
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent