Merchant Marine Sizes

[miketr]

We are going by more or less the numbers what were in the old forum.

The problem with doing (going by what I read in the links at the top of the thread is the MM are just abstracted) that is how do we tell how well commerce warfare is doing?  Cruiser Warfare is a numbers game in the end...  Capturing X number of ships is fine but without having something to compare it with it's of strictly limited use. 

Going off the old posts again its clear that this is another hot topic but I think that sooner or later something more specific needs to be come up with.

Specific doesn't mean complex and your default freightor sizes are simple and easy.  As are the custom civilian ships.... 

Michael

[P3D]

I suggested on the moderators board to make more rules for merchant marine. I.e. how much building capacity it takes to maintain that merchant marine, how much income that merchant marine generates ($ income per 1,000,000t). Then treating commerce warfare (at least against merchant marine) would have been easier.

Needless to say, all the other moderators vehemently opposed this.

[Korpen]

I suggested on the moderators board to make more rules for merchant marine. I.e. how much building capacity it takes to maintain that merchant marine, how much income that merchant marine generates ($ income per 1,000,000t). Then treating commerce warfare (at least against merchant marine) would have been easier.

Needless to say, all the other moderators vehemently opposed this.

Understandably, after all, few countries here are plane-economies.
Most countries are stretched for recourses so I am against pretty much everything that places more burden on the BPs we got.

Understandably, after all, few countries here are plane-economies.
Most countries are stretched for recourses so I am against pretty much everything that places bore burden on the BPs we got.

Knowing how large merchant fleets we got are interesting and valuable, from a RP perspective, and as a guideline for the Mods in judging effects...

[miketr]

I echo Korpen's thoughts.  It would be good to know the raw size but I am not interested in it costing or giving more $ or BP's.  At least not mid game.

Michael

[maddox]

Less beancounting, more play, thank you.

[miketr]

How about this suggestion.  We use some type of forumla for MM size, tied to BP / IC / $ or whatever.  That way we have a number for use with Cruiser Warfare.  After the war is over the MM recovers at some rate... say 1 year for each (5%?) fraction to recover.  If you lost half your MM it takes 10 years for it to recover.  The players put have very little to keep track of and any wartime effects are easier to calculate for the mods as we have a size of the MM to work with.  Also for the sake of simplicity I would suggest there be no negatives to a depleted MM, its just outside the scope of the game.  In peace time a nation would just use the World Wide pool of MM available and it would to a certain extent just drive up everyones prices.

Michael

[P3D]

Just assume that Merchant Marine is somehow included in IC cost.

With current rules, 1 BP would build 4000t of merchant shipping. 1BP would sustain a 200,000t fleet assuming a 25-year average ship life. To maintain 4,000,000t, a 20BP would be needed.

Introducing such a rule would necessitate increasing the BP accordingly.

[P3D]

As not everyone is equal, and there are nations giving more emphasis on merchant marine than others, the situation would have looked like this pre-war:

Europe
UKA 4,000,000
HOL 4,000,000
FRA 2,000,000
Baltic 4,000,000

Russia 500,000
AH 600,000
Italy 1,000,000
Spain 1,000,000

Americas

GC 1,000,000
Rohan 2,000,000
CSA 1,500,000
USA 500,000

Africa+Asia
Orange 1,000,000
DKB 3,000,000
Swiss 2,500,000
Japan 500,000 (inherited from Swiss)
Turkey 200,000
Siam 100,000
China 200,000

This adds up to over 30 million ocean-going tonnage. Don't know that 44 million was ocean-going or not.

The easiest to account separately for merchant marine is to give a revenue figure for each 1,000t of shipping. Getting into export-import would make it real messy, so income would come from IC and merchant marine. Max MM income could be limited to a given percentage of the economy.

[P3D]

I made a summary of the world economy, as of 1909, without war effect

Total population 2010 million (historical ~1800million)
247.75   total BP
1871 IC
$3260 total revenue

The difference in population is more populous Africa, Americas, China and two fantasyland. Maoria was ignored.

[Korpen]

Europe
UKA 4,000,000
HOL 4,000,000


USA 500,000

Is the United norman kingdom (UNK) and UKA the same thing?
HOL= Netherlands?

And USA? were did that come from?

[Korpen]

I made a summary of the world economy, as of 1909, without war effect

Total population 2010 million (historical ~1800million)
247.75   total BP
1871 IC
$3260 total revenue

The difference in population is more populous Africa, Americas, China and two fantasyland. Maoria was ignored.

Well this war will have no real effect on the global population, at least not unless it grows considerably.

[Ithekro]

USA = Argentina (now)

[Borys]

Union Sul Americana

[miketr]

A couple of things...

1) The 43 million tons was anything that floats on the high seas coastal and long distance trade, from what I read I suspect that 60% of the total was in distant trade but thats just off the German totals.  The division you have looks good.  Any thought how to the MM expands?

2) Not that I object to more BP's but unless were are going to have to build our MM why do we need more BP's?  Not sure about the idea of the MM being tied to just BP's but some metric is needed.

3) Also P3D why do you want to the MM to provide income?  It would help better understand what your trying to achieve.  If you have the MM add income are you going to change the metrics on IC?  Increase its cost or something to make it produce less money?

Michael

[P3D]

The average comes to 4000GRT, about 3000NRT.