1000 ton destroyer

[Tanthalas]

Italia X-DD, Italia Destroyer laid down 1906

Displacement:
   865 t light; 895 t standard; 1,000 t normal; 1,084 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   91.44 m / 91.44 m x 7.62 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 128 lbs / 58 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   9 - 12.0" / 304.8 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length
    
Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,305 shp / 15,147 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 1,500nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 189 tons

Complement:
   88 - 115

Cost:
   £0.124 million / $0.498 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.6 %
   Armour: 49 tons, 4.9 %
      - Belts: 49 tons, 4.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 576 tons, 57.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 223 tons, 22.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 135 tons, 13.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     187 lbs / 85 Kg = 5.8 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.16

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.467
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.80 ft / 3.60 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 76.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,851 Square feet or 451 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 36 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 21 lbs/sq ft or 104 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.45
      - Longitudinal: 1.49
      - Overall: 0.50
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Borys]

Ahoj!
We count light, so you have almost 150 tonnes more to play with. A lot in those small ships. But you must have cross-sectional strenght 0,50 or better. Add a bit of beam.
The torpedos seem unusually small.
Forget the belt.
Even for the Med the range is outrageously small.
Increase ammunition to some 200-250.
Borys

[Borys]

In ages past Gravina desgned these destroyers for Italy:
Norico, Pannonia, Aquitania, Narbonese, Dalmazia

Laid down 1902

Displacement:
949 t light; 1.000 t standard; 1.188 t normal; 1.338 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
262,47 ft / 262,47 ft x 26,25 ft x 13,12 ft (normal load)
80,00 m / 80,00 m x 8,00 m x 4,00 m

Armament:
4 - 4,00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32,00lbs / 14,51kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side ends, evenly spread
4 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1902 Model
Breech loading guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
Weight of broadside 182 lbs / 83 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 250
6 - 18,1" / 460 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 1,00" / 25 mm - -

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10.000 ihp / 7.460 Kw = 24,11 kts
Range 5.010nm at 10,00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 338 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
100 - 131

Cost:
?0,151 million / $0,606 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 23 tons, 1,9 %
Armour: 9 tons, 0,7 %
- Belts: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Armament: 9 tons, 0,7 %
- Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0,0 %
- Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0,0 %
Machinery: 708 tons, 59,6 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 209 tons, 17,6 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 239 tons, 20,1 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
177 lbs / 80 Kg = 5,5 x 4,0 " / 102 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,44
Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
Roll period: 9,8 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,20
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,21

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0,460
Length to Beam Ratio: 10,00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 16,20 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 21,33 ft / 6,50 m
- Forecastle (25 %): 14,76 ft / 4,50 m
- Mid (50 %): 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
- Stern: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m
- Average freeboard: 10,26 ft / 3,13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 207,9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 38,7 %
Waterplane Area: 4.431 Square feet or 412 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 37 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0,51
- Longitudinal: 1,37
- Overall: 0,57
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily   

**************************
With all due respect, better than your effort. Give them turbines and see them go!
Borys

[Tanthalas]

LOL i have bene counting standard not light all along =P  and if I want 30 knots i cant make em any heavier, tech limitations till 1909 >< although that makes makes a diferance on my 1905 destroyers

[maddox]

My toughts

Increase weight to 1000 tons light.
Remove belt armor. Give the 4 4" guns .5" splinter/weather shields.
Increase amount of shells.
Get some secundary guns. 37mm QF guns for example.
Use bigger torpedo's.  14" at least, 18" is better, and dedicate 1 ton of misc weight for each torpedo carried. (can you use tripple torpedo launchers?)

Don't forget a Marconi instalation.

[Tanthalas]

yes i can use tripple TT, and the increase in weight changes alot of stuff basicly shreds the ship as i initialy worked it up

[P3D]

Destroyer must have 0.50 cross-sectional (not overall) strength.

You must have misc weight, 1t/torpedo and 10t for wireless. And make the torpedoes 20-21" .
Go for coal firing. You don't have the tech yet in 1905. 15@1500nm range is adequate, although coal firing would have some penalties.

And forget the belt armor. 1" would hardly stop 4" shells. And 6' depth is useless.

There are some destroyer designs with 1905 engines around. Look at them.
Decreasing speed to 29kts might allow you these changes, and would still be on the high side.

[Ithekro]

12" torpedoes are not all that common in that age.  It is more a modern type of light torpedo used by anti-submarine work (with all the fancy electronics and mechanisms to go with it).  14" is about the smallest historical ship mounted torpedo of this era with the Italians using standard 18" whitehead torpedoes on pretty much everything.

[Tanthalas]

Italia DD-1905, Italia Destroyer laid down 1905

Displacement:
   758 t light; 780 t standard; 857 t normal; 918 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   91.44 m / 91.44 m x 7.62 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 42 lbs / 19 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 17,715 shp / 13,216 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 138 tons (100% coal)
     Caution: Delicate, lightweight machinery

Complement:
   78 - 102

Cost:
   £0.104 million / $0.415 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 0.6 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 519 tons, 60.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 203 tons, 23.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 99 tons, 11.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 28 tons, 3.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     140 lbs / 63 Kg = 10.3 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 0.8 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.400
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 203.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 19.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,617 Square feet or 429 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 28 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 100 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.49
      - Overall: 0.50
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

here is my 758 ton dd that i made up my navy using, better / worse?

[Tanthalas]

12" torpedoes are not all that common in that age.  It is more a modern type of light torpedo used by anti-submarine work (with all the fancy electronics and mechanisms to go with it).  14" is about the smallest historical ship mounted torpedo of this era with the Italians using standard 18" whitehead torpedoes on pretty much everything.

for the 12" torp i was basing torp size off what the Navy Used when i was in...

[Ithekro]

I was figuring on that since I've seen someone else use that type of small torpedo before and wondered what they were going on about.  These old wet-heater torpedoes won't be sinking any submerged submarines anytime soon.

[P3D]

The 0.40 block coefficient for the small design in extreme. Pushing 30kts for 30kts' sake forces you to use irrealistic and ahistorical features.

[Tanthalas]

1000 toner mark II

Italia DD-1908, Italia Destroyer laid down 1908 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   1,000 t light; 1,029 t standard; 1,132 t normal; 1,214 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 25.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   91.44 m / 91.44 m x 7.62 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 56 lbs / 25 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   9 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 19,673 shp / 14,676 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 2,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 185 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   96 - 126

Cost:
   £0.139 million / $0.556 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 7 tons, 0.6 %
   Armour: 6 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 6 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 700 tons, 61.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 250 tons, 22.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 132 tons, 11.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 37 tons, 3.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     183 lbs / 83 Kg = 13.6 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 12.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.11
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.528
   Length to Beam Ratio: 12.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 207.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 17.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 5,129 Square feet or 476 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 34 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.53
      - Longitudinal: 1.39
      - Overall: 0.58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor

[Ithekro]

I was going to say you might want something like a British I-class destroyer, but it depends on if you want the vessel to engage torpedo boats, light cruisers, or be mainly torpedo delivery craft.

If you want pure torpedo delivery, go cheap and build a lot of them.

If you want to engage torpedo boats and up to light cruisers you should use 4" guns as the 3" will only be useful against the torpedo boats and other destroyers.

(Note: 9 torpedoes is an awful lot of fish in this day and age.  I can blame the Swiss for pushing the numbers up to 8 fish rather than just 2-4 fish.)

You could also design this as a torpedo-gunboat type with lots of guns and a few torpedo mounts.  These tend to be slower but more able to destroy other torpedo craft.

Of course that depends greatly on your mindset (defensive or offensive).

[Desertfox]

Hey! Only the brand new Mountbattens mount more than 4 torpedoes (6x18" torps per ship). That's one thing you can't blame me for. ;) Now my cruisers...that's another story.

The 1000t MKII looks good, 'cept for the torps. They are much too big, go with something in the 19"- 20" range. Should help with the extremly poor space.