1000 ton destroyer

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
With all due respect I think something about your argumentation stinks. Following your line of thought, I can have a raised part of hull, but the guns on it are not raised?

Yes, and no. Guns are mounted at the freeboard level of the mid portion of the ship. If guns are all aft, then all the guns are mounted behind the midbreak, and vice versa if all forward.
Springsharp never places gun on the forecastle, nor on the quarterdeck (or so I have been told). The point is that from springsharps perspective it does not matter were the midbreak is, if it is 60% or 30% of the hull, if a mount is tagged as being in front of this point, the height of the freeboard "forward of midbreak" is used for calculation (such as the weight of a barbarette).

SS instructions are to mark the fore turret as raised
http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/battleship/dreadnought-line.gif
Correct me if I missunderstood your argumentation, but you say it isn't "raised"?

Yes, that turret is raised as it is above the freeboard at that point along the ship.
But it is also irrelevant, a more relevant example would be Invincible, she have a raise forward of midbreak (some 60% down the hull) should she have three raised turrets?
( http://www.worldwar1.co.uk/battlecruiser/invincible-line.gif )

I do not wish to offend anybody, but there is something I feel uneasy about.
And please leave flush decked designs out of this, as they are not relevant.

I doubt anyone if offended (or at least I hope that is not the case).
Flushed deck designs are just as relevant, as the mechanics used for simulating them are the same.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Doesn't the Invincible have a ... lowered quarterdeck?

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

As an aside - why does Italy have the "thousand tonne can" technology when it's only just become available for research in H1/08?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
N2 legacy. Crappy cruisers, but superadvanced in destroyers so that Gravina could built "sploratori".
Borys

[Carthaginian]

Borys:

Dreadnought's fore turret was called 'raised' because the turret was not at freeboard level. The freeboard level is where the two beam turrets were located. The fore turret is clearly a 'raised' turret with the freeboard deck running along the edges of the beam.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/HMS_Dreadnought_%281911%29_profile_drawing.png/800px-HMS_Dreadnought_%281911%29_profile_drawing.png

HMS Revenge, however. has only 1 raised turret forward, as the A turret sits on the freeboard deck. A turret is NOT raised, B turret IS raised. The freeboard deck forward is level with where the gun turret's barbette comes out of the deck, thus, the turret is not raised above the freeboard level.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/HMS_Revenge_%281916%29_profile_drawing.png

This is how I understood the SS instructions, and how I build my ships.

[Tanthalas]

As an aside - why does Italy have the "thousand tonne can" technology when it's only just become available for research in H1/08?

not sure why i started with it lol just know i did

[Tanthalas]

Look im not going to argue about this ill just give you an example.  HMS Queen Elizabeth is a spring sharp default ship, which we must assume since the developer put in is right. 

HMS Queen Elizabeth, Royal Navy Battleship laid down 1912

Displacement:
   26,422 t light; 28,473 t standard; 29,267 t normal; 29,902 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   645.75 ft / 645.75 ft x 90.60 ft x 28.75 ft (normal load)
   196.82 m / 196.82 m x 27.61 m  x 8.76 m

Armament:
      8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,938.00lbs / 879.06kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     Main guns limited to end-on fire
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all aft
     4 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      3 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.17lbs / 1.44kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 17,285 lbs / 7,840 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   235.00 ft / 71.63 m   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
     0.75 ft / 0.23 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 55,373 shp / 41,308 Kw = 24.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,429 tons

Complement:
   1,118 - 1,454

Cost:
   £2.838 million / $11.354 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,910 tons, 6.5 %
   Armour: 10,051 tons, 34.3 %
      - Belts: 4,021 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 819 tons, 2.8 %
      - Armament: 2,591 tons, 8.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,395 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 225 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,208 tons, 7.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,252 tons, 41.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,846 tons, 9.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     39,629 lbs / 17,976 Kg = 23.5 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 1.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.609
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.13 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.41 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 34
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (21 %):   28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Mid (67 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (16 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   23.09 ft / 7.04 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 170.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 43,150 Square feet or 4,009 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 956 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

As you can see she basically mounts her forward guns raised by your argument Borys however she only lists 4 raised guns.  I would take it that the raised mounts are one forward and one aft however looking at this picture


So either the devs didn't know what they were doing with their own program (I find this difficult to believe) or Kopen and I are right on how we thought to do it.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
After playing WFB and WH40K I testify to developers not knowing what they are doing with their own work :)
OK - you convinced me.
Borys

[Tanthalas]

Ahoj!
After playing WFB and WH40K I testify to developers not knowing what they are doing with their own work :)
OK - you convinced me.
Borys

LOL on the 40k thing ill agree totaly, ill have to dig out my army list and post it... 2000 point space marine army that cant loose (well not against anything less than chaos anyway) did you know in a 2000 point army you can deploy  6 whirlwinds... got range =P

[miketr]

Keep in mind that QE design is a botched one, the guns are limited to end on end fire.  Odds are the Y turret should be listed as a below freeboard.  A and X are on the main deck, B is raised and Y is on a lowered quarter deck.

Michael

[Tanthalas]

Keep in mind that QE design is a botched one, the guns are limited to end on end fire.  Odds are the Y turret should be listed as a below freeboard.  A and X are on the main deck, B is raised and Y is on a lowered quarter deck.

Michael

I know I spent 2 hours one day trying to make her work and finally gave up, but then I read up on her and she was extremely unstable.  I think they simd her exactly how she was, Nelson wasn't supposed to fire all her guns in broadside either but did which led to allot of damage to her.  My whole point was that if the devs could do it was most likely an acceptable method of doing it.

[Korpen]

Keep in mind that QE design is a botched one, the guns are limited to end on end fire.  Odds are the Y turret should be listed as a below freeboard.  A and X are on the main deck, B is raised and Y is on a lowered quarter deck.

Michael

I think you are putting the cart in front of the horse. Springsharp give an approximation based on average historical ships. That does not mean that every history ship will sim out as a perfect SS ship. Flipping the trim one stem removes that flag.

And you still have a few things to take into account, springsharp never place guns on the forecastle and quarter deck (Boxes 5&6 and 12&13).
And putting a turret below the freeboard have a few problems, the main one would be that the turret is below the deck and inside the hull, making it somewhat problematic to fire its guns. ... ;)