Iberian Design Studies...

[miketr]

My building projects are projected out till around 1911 or so.  With time on my hands I have choosen to play around with what might be.  These designs might or might not get built, its so far into the future its very likely that things can and will change.

Michael

[miketr]

Follow on armored cruiser...  Bigger is better...

Michael

AC-1912, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   22,423 t light; 23,887 t standard; 25,677 t normal; 27,109 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 26.50 ft (normal load)
   198.12 m / 198.12 m x 28.35 m  x 8.08 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.68kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,295 lbs / 3,762 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   416.00 ft / 126.80 m   14.51 ft / 4.42 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   223.98 ft / 68.27 m   14.51 ft / 4.42 m
     10.02 ft / 3.05 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   416.00 ft / 126.80 m   11.50 ft / 3.51 m
     Main Belt covers 98 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   416.00 ft / 126.80 m   24.32 ft / 7.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.25" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 70,000 shp / 52,220 Kw = 26.12 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,222 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   1,013 - 1,318

Cost:
   £2.072 million / $8.287 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,037 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 8,846 tons, 34.4 %
      - Belts: 3,929 tons, 15.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 749 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 2,168 tons, 8.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,774 tons, 6.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 225 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,972 tons, 11.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,515 tons, 37.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,254 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 53 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     35,485 lbs / 16,096 Kg = 41.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.561
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.99 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.21 ft / 7.99 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.71 ft / 6.92 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.71 ft / 5.70 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.71 ft / 5.70 m
      - Stern:      18.71 ft / 5.70 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.39 ft / 6.21 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 157.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 42,625 Square feet or 3,960 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 161 lbs/sq ft or 786 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

not a bad ship but tbh its as big as my battleships.

[miketr]

not a bad ship but tbh its as big as my battleships.

There is a reason for that...  If you look at historic AC's / BC's they were BB / DN size or larger.

Michael

[Tanthalas]

I plan to build on my own theory of naval warfare.  Basicly Big Powerful ships to scare everyone, small faster ships to do the real damage, my acs are really just improved pocket battleships.

[Korpen]

Follow on armored cruiser...  Bigger is better...

Michael

AC-1912, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   22,423 t light; 23,887 t standard; 25,677 t normal; 27,109 t full load

I do not like her at all. It is far from a bad ship as such, but for a ships of over 22k ton i think she simply is not value for money.
If i use my own 1909 BC study as a benchmark ( http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=898.msg12550#msg12550 ), this ship has no better firepower, protection is on the same scale and she is only one knot faster. Her biggest advantage is that she got a real torpedo defence system and underwater survivability, but it much of that increase is from the fact that she is 50% larger.

So, not a bad ship, but allot of tonnage to get just eight 30,5cm guns into action.

[miketr]

Follow on armored cruiser...  Bigger is better...

Michael

AC-1912, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   22,423 t light; 23,887 t standard; 25,677 t normal; 27,109 t full load

I do not like her at all. It is far from a bad ship as such, but for a ships of over 22k ton i think she simply is not value for money.
If i use my own 1909 BC study as a benchmark ( http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=898.msg12550#msg12550 ), this ship has no better firepower, protection is on the same scale and she is only one knot faster. Her biggest advantage is that she got a real torpedo defence system and underwater survivability, but it much of that increase is from the fact that she is 50% larger.

So, not a bad ship, but allot of tonnage to get just eight 30,5cm guns into action.

The big thing was to get the torpedo defense system. 

I agree your design is nice but my own opinion is that its just too small of a ship.  My own ship will be able to hang in a fight much longer and take much more punishment. 

The extra knot of speed cost me 45% more SHP and a great deal of stability because it trashed me seakeeping so i needed to increase freeboard.  That extra knot was VERY expensive.

My design has 80% more armor by weight.  Look at the width and height of our two main belts.  And the % of hull covered.  I could have fit a 5th twin turret if I cut the protection back to SS defaults.

My design has 2 superfiring twin turrets to your 1.

Your design is a pure oil fired, till later I am only going to have that one group of PC's with pure oil fired boilers, so for now mixed fired.

I will go back and rethink the design, perhaps I could get more with a redesign.  After all we post for feedback and thanks for yours.

Michael

[P3D]

You could increase draft to 27-28ft. That would save you a lot.

Currently there is not much disadvantage of deeper drafts, so people will tend to have deeper draft ships than OTL. No restriction due to harbors etc....

But yes, the 1kts extra speed and the TDS costs a lot on the displacement.

The 200 shells per gun are on the higher side. The 50t misc weight is a bit low.
Two TTs should be enough. It would save on the length of the citadel.
And make the deck either 2" or 2.5", deck armor I count in 0.5" increments.
I'd decrease main belt height, and increase upper belt height.
Try to get the ship shorter and decrease beam a feet or two.
Decrease TBH thickness to 1.5".
Or try for a 2T3+2T2 arrangement, although the stability would suffer (perhaps go to average steadiness instead).

[miketr]

I used some of your suggestions and was able to save about 1,000 tons of light displacement.

AC-1912b, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   21,494 t light; 22,940 t standard; 24,821 t normal; 26,325 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   650.00 ft / 650.00 ft x 90.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   198.12 m / 198.12 m x 27.43 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 8,295 lbs / 3,762 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   406.00 ft / 123.75 m   12.51 ft / 3.81 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   244.00 ft / 74.37 m   12.51 ft / 3.81 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   406.00 ft / 123.75 m   10.50 ft / 3.20 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   406.00 ft / 123.75 m   24.32 ft / 7.41 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 68,000 shp / 50,728 Kw = 26.13 kts
   Range 10,800nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,385 tons (67% coal)

Complement:
   988 - 1,285

Cost:
   £2.027 million / $8.110 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,037 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 8,181 tons, 33.0 %
      - Belts: 3,397 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 548 tons, 2.2 %
      - Armament: 2,128 tons, 8.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,888 tons, 7.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 220 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,887 tons, 11.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,155 tons, 36.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,327 tons, 13.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 233 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32,230 lbs / 14,619 Kg = 37.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 4.8 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.22 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.50 ft / 7.77 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.68 ft / 6.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 40,827 Square feet or 3,793 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 780 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.21
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ithekro]

This is almost the size of HMS Lion.

[miketr]

This is almost the size of HMS Lion.

Well it is a 1912 design... Also I have been seeing a few larger design being put out by other people or do you think it should have more firepower for the displacement?

Michael

[miketr]

A trade protection cruiser and escort.

Michael

PC-1912, Iberia Protected Cruiser laid down 1912

Displacement:
   2,225 t light; 2,313 t standard; 2,522 t normal; 2,690 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   328.08 ft / 328.08 ft x 32.81 ft x 16.40 ft (normal load)
   100.00 m / 100.00 m x 10.00 m  x 5.00 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 368 lbs / 167 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 0.8" / 20 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2.95" / 75 mm   288.71 ft / 88.00 m   6.89 ft / 2.10 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 135 % of normal length

   - Armour deck: 0.98" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 3 shafts, 24,000 shp / 17,904 Kw = 27.16 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 377 tons

Complement:
   177 - 231

Cost:
   £0.247 million / $0.988 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 46 tons, 1.8 %
   Armour: 364 tons, 14.4 %
      - Belts: 233 tons, 9.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 131 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 932 tons, 36.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 869 tons, 34.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 297 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,563 lbs / 709 Kg = 44.3 x 4.1 " / 105 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.500
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.86 ft / 5.75 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.58 ft / 4.75 m
      - Mid (50 %):      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.25 ft / 4.34 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 134.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 105.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,172 Square feet or 666 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 57 lbs/sq ft or 281 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.18
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

4 - 0.8" / 20 mm above water torpedoes

Miniaturization* is supposed to be a secret tech.
May I suggest mixed coal firing? If they are fleet duty, you can get along with oil firing, but for a trade protection cruiser should run much more on coal.
And I'd put 6"s at the ends. Also, a bit more shells per gun. 150 shells could last no longer than 20 minutes.
I'd also decrease L:B from 10, at least for a 27kts design, but that's my preference.


*:although a 20mm torpedo would have the destructive power of...well, what you would expect from a 20mm torpedo.

[Desertfox]

Fish killers! Or are those the dreaded photon torpedoes?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The PC-1912 is great for a fleet scout/flotilla leader, but with the size of cruisers in N-verse it is too small for independent operations. For station cruisers and for trade protection/destruction duties it is too small. For that IMO 4000-5000 tonnes are needed, and a 6 inch gun (at least one) advisable. And the range is small. Naturaly, this range is perfectly adequate for operating between Cartagena and Malta, or between Bilbao and Plymouth.

Borys