Proposed 1906 Cruiser

[Tanthalas]

Having made a deep study of what opposes us in our immediate regions of interest, the RM has arrived at the fact that a strong cruiser is necessary that we might meet our potential enemies on equal footing.  As such it gives us great pleasure to present the proposed 1906 pattern Cruiser.

pic coming tomorow

Italia-AC-1906, Italia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   10,324 t light; 10,750 t standard; 11,800 t normal; 12,640 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   429.00 ft / 429.00 ft x 64.00 ft (Bulges 74.00 ft) x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   130.76 m / 130.76 m x 19.51 m (Bulges 22.56 m)  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      9 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3x3 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward
      14 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mount
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts
      20 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (10x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,487 lbs / 2,489 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 60
   2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   241.53 ft / 73.62 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   187.45 ft / 57.13 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   241.53 ft / 73.62 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 17,733 shp / 13,229 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,890 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   565 - 735

Cost:
   £1.144 million / $4.578 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 686 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 4,051 tons, 34.3 %
      - Belts: 1,970 tons, 16.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,265 tons, 10.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 704 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 112 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,478 tons, 12.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,010 tons, 34.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,476 tons, 12.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,870 lbs / 5,384 Kg = 23.7 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.542
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.71 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forecastle (22 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (49 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m (11.00 ft / 3.35 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (22 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.43 ft / 4.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,019 Square feet or 1,767 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 663 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.79
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
IMO yet again a Second Class Battleship.
It has neither the range nor speed to be classed as cruiser.
And a one foot gap between top of UB and Weather Deck.
But it is a mighty fine Second Class Battleship.

Borys

[maddox]

Modern French Battleships in the med.
2nd Battle Squadron (Med F)
MN Vergniaud
MN Justice
MN Patrie

Heavy cruisers
4th Heavy Cruiser Squadron (Med F)
MN D'entrecasteaux
MN Dupleix
MN Desaix
MN Kleber

Escort group- Fast UKA ships
2nd Escort Flottila (Med F)
1 Quebec Class PC
5 Fleurus II Sloops

Convoy protection group.
10th Escort Flottila (Med F)
MN Alger
MN Jean Bart
MN Isly
4 Avisos (sloops)


Small units and support
1st TB Flottila (Med F)
MN Foudre
10 TB/GB

2nd TB Flottila (Med F)
10 TB/GB[

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Are you sure about this:

Armament:
      9 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (3x3 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward

Borys

[Carthaginian]

If you want an armored cruiser, drop her to 3x2x10" and increase speed to at least 24 kts... 25 if you're able. I'd drop the armor to about 8" as well.

[Tanthalas]

Perhaps you all really don't get the restrictions i'm working with here, at least in 1906 I face 2 totally different problems.  The French have small fast (22 knot) 8x7.85" cruisers that are lightly armored, the Iberians have large slow (21 knot) 8x9.85" cruisers that are armored to the teeth.  I have to come up with an effective way to counter both.  So i'm stuck I need a minimum of 8 guns and a minimum of a 10" shell, and I have to either make 22 knots or out armor my opposition to the point that them being able to dictate the range is of no importance.  Now as for the gun layout well lol it actually works as centerline ends, but in keeping with my weird ideas I decided to make one like the pick you posted Boris, I just really liked that ship.  But in all honesty guys in 1906 I don't think I can lay down a 24/25 knot ship.  Believe me i'm a speed freak and I can't come up with a way to get that fast effectively... ><

[Carthaginian]

Remember... you're not just competeing against the cruisers- you have to make your ships faster than the battlehsips that will be sent to kill them as well. Get the ship to 23 knots, and that will give you a good cushion.

[Ithekro]

23 knots is not out of reach of Italian designs of 1905.  They were however less heavily armed and probably had less range (1905 Italian ships that could make 22.5 knots has either triple expansion engines or turbines, they did both that year.  Pisa and San Giorgio classes: roughly 10,000 tons, around 460 feet long, 69 feet wide, 24 feet deep.  4 x 10" guns, 8 x 7.5" guns and about 20 x 12 or 14 pounders as the main anti-torpedo boat quickfires.  Plus three torpedo tubes (two submerged on the flanks and one above aft...18" torps.  18,000 - 20,000 HP.  8" main belt.)

[Tanthalas]

23 knots is not out of reach of Italian designs of 1905.  They were however less heavily armed and probably had less range (1905 Italian ships that could make 22.5 knots has either triple expansion engines or turbines, they did both that year.  Pisa and San Giorgio classes: roughly 10,000 tons, around 460 feet long, 69 feet wide, 24 feet deep.  4 x 10" guns, 8 x 7.5" guns and about 20 x 12 or 14 pounders as the main anti-torpedo boat quickfires.  Plus three torpedo tubes (two submerged on the flanks and one above aft...18" torps.  18,000 - 20,000 HP.  8" main belt.)

That is actually the ship I started with.  Then as usual with my ships it evolved into something totally different. I was content with 6x10" until I realized the Iberians were using 8x9.85, 2 more trainable guns = loosing proposition for me imo.  So instead of just adding a double turret, I went with a triple (not really that big a difference honestly weight gain wise).  Idk maybe I just need to counter the most powerful one and ignore the less powerful one.  Back to the drawing boards I go ^.^

[Ithekro]

Perhaps dropping the 5" battery and staying with either more 10" guns, or add a heavy secondary battery in place of the 5" guns.  Something that can punch through cruiser armor at combat ranges in 1906.

Another option is fitting the ship with a few 12" guns and lots of 10" guns and nothing until you get to your 3" guns.  This would be almost like a mix of Japanese and Italian designs.

[Tanthalas]

Try #6 LOL

ill make a pic later if people think its functional

Italia-1906-AC, Italia Heavy Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1905)

Displacement:
   10,826 t light; 11,367 t standard; 12,100 t normal; 12,686 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   470.00 ft / 470.00 ft x 64.00 ft (Bulges 74.00 ft) x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   143.26 m / 143.26 m x 19.51 m (Bulges 22.56 m)  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      8 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (4x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      14 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns (1x2 guns), 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      16 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      16 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,121 lbs / 2,323 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   303.62 ft / 92.54 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   166.36 ft / 50.71 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   303.62 ft / 92.54 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 99 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   4th:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 24,754 shp / 18,466 Kw = 22.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,319 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   576 - 749

Cost:
   £1.205 million / $4.822 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 640 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 3,649 tons, 30.2 %
      - Belts: 1,834 tons, 15.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 978 tons, 8.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 747 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 91 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,063 tons, 17.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,274 tons, 35.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,274 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,989 lbs / 4,985 Kg = 22.0 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.507
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.35 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (18 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Quarterdeck (18 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.59 ft / 5.06 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,177 Square feet or 1,874 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 132 lbs/sq ft or 644 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.70
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

What the bulges are for? Unprotected addition to the sides just make the ship to sink faster. And I frown upon using bulges to spare deck armor  weight >:(.

[Desertfox]

I designed a very similar series of ships for New Zion, take a look at them, they can be found here:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=903.0

[Ithekro]

How does one simulate a tumble-home hull in SS2 anyway?  I know the French ships are suppose to have that design, but they don't.

[P3D]

SS takes waterplane area by beam. Bulges are strictly underwater. Bulges are my best bet how to model them. Keep in mind  that tumblehome will weaken the effective armor strength, or, if the slope is large, the reserve buoyancy and stability of the ship considerably.