Hmmm... Should I? (Pre-Dread Refit)

[Carthaginian]

Ok, the CSA's old pre-dread battleships are barely serviceable in their present incarnations. Their 12" guns are only 35 caliber and they have nothing in the way of range. This is an attempt at a rebuild to make them useful CDS that will give at least another decade or two of service.

I replaced the old 12"/35 cal guns with the new 12"/45 cal 800-pounder guns that I'm researching, added in three 7.5"/45 cal 200-pounder twin turrets to replace the old short 6" guns. There are fewer gun tubes now, but they have better range and penetration than the 6" guns. I also replaced the old 3"/12-pounder anti-TB guns with the new 3.5"/50 caliber 25-pounders that I'm researching.

New engines (still VTE, but modern ones) give an extra knot of speed and more than double the cruising range of the originals. The superstructure has been cut down to a minimum setup and some heavy 1" machine guns have been installed. Also, a Marconi and other new innovations have been added to the ship, hence the huge increase in Misc. Weight. All in all, the ships gained 4 tons of normal displacement.

The original ship:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=742.msg4915#msg4915

The refitted ship:


San Jocento (ex-Texas), Confederate States of America Armorclad laid down 1895 (Engine 1910)

Displacement:
   9,700 t light; 10,253 t standard; 11,164 t normal; 11,893 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   405.00 ft / 400.00 ft x 73.00 ft x 21.00 ft (normal load)
   123.44 m / 121.92 m x 22.25 m  x 6.40 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 800.00lbs / 362.87kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (2x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (1x2 guns), 200.00lbs / 90.72kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in a turret (on a barbette)
     on centreline aft, all raised guns - superfiring
      12 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,704 lbs / 2,134 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   280.00 ft / 85.34 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   120.00 ft / 36.58 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   280.00 ft / 85.34 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm
   5th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 14,999 ihp / 11,189 Kw = 18.97 kts
   Range 8,200nm at 10.87 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,640 tons

Complement:
   542 - 705

Cost:
   £0.990 million / $3.960 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 623 tons, 5.6 %
   Armour: 3,667 tons, 32.8 %
      - Belts: 2,083 tons, 18.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 863 tons, 7.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 613 tons, 5.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 108 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 909 tons, 8.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,155 tons, 37.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,464 tons, 13.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 345 tons, 3.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,139 lbs / 6,413 Kg = 16.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.637
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.80 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m
      - Mid (60 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m (8.00 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.39 ft / 4.39 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 107.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 22,107 Square feet or 2,054 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 683 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.85
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily



So, what do ya'll think?
Would it be worth something like this to get a serviceable CDS, or am I better off making her into razorblades?

[Tanthalas]

I was thinkin sort of the same thing with my older ones, so for me i would say yes.

[Carthaginian]

Well, I would have ordered something new built, but hey... cheaper is cheaper, and I only want these ships to discourage someone getting too close to the coast. I don't expect them to actually kill a modern battleship; but I do hope they could damage one a bit.

This reconstruction would cost me 1.45 BP for 3 halves... not a bad deal.

I wish I could have kept 100-pounders guns for the secondaries, but alas, that was not to be. At least the 200-pounders can be fired in all sea states, being as they could be mounted in turrets. If I thought it worth going a whole-hog reconstruction, I could have tried adding turbines as well... but that is just too much money to spend on a ship this old.

Anyone else care to comment?

[The Rock Doctor]

It's not bad, but what can you do with new construction using 5.8 BP (4.35 in new construction, + scrap value of San Jacinto)?

[Carthaginian]

Well, I could build 6 new cans, but you only need so many of them. ;)
Since I could get a decade or so more service out of her, I think that it might be worth it.
After that, I could probably find a buyer in NZ, the Frianj, or some other minor NPC nation.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Very nice Mid Life Refit.
Frankly, I'm tempted to buy the original version ... how much do you want for the pair?

Borys

[Desertfox]

NS will beat any offer in the market by 20%. ;)

[Borys]

I'm preetier.

[Carthaginian]

NS will beat any offer in the market by 20%. ;)

But what if we're not in it for the money... ;)

[Desertfox]

So the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS? Pity you don't have a Monroe Doctrine. The Austrians have been messing around in America far more than NS...

[Carthaginian]

So the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS? Pity you don't have a Monroe Doctrine. The Austrians have been messing around in America far more than NS...

LOL... religion isn't an issue in the CSA, so never count on it as a motivating factor in internatonal affairs.*
Remember, roughly 40% of my population is Catholic, 40% is Protestant, 10% is Native American Shamanism, and the remaining 10% is devided fairly equally between followers of the Old Religion of Rohan, Bhuddists, and non-believing heathens.

However, the ships are not for sale- that's what the 'not in it for the money' meant.
I'm running those old girls till their bottoms wear out.
I'm behind in the battleship race in North America; they are my insulation against being ompletely overtaken.


*The CSA can only be relied upon for one thing in religion and politics:
No Mohammedians need apply.

[Korpen]

Ok, the CSA's old pre-dread battleships are barely serviceable in their present incarnations. Their 12" guns are only 35 caliber and they have nothing in the way of range. This is an attempt at a rebuild to make them useful CDS that will give at least another decade or two of service.

I replaced the old 12"/35 cal guns with the new 12"/45 cal 800-pounder guns that I'm researching, added in three 7.5"/45 cal 200-pounder twin turrets to replace the old short 6" guns. There are fewer gun tubes now, but they have better range and penetration than the 6" guns. I also replaced the old 3"/12-pounder anti-TB guns with the new 3.5"/50 caliber 25-pounders that I'm researching.

So, what do ya'll think?
Would it be worth something like this to get a serviceable CDS, or am I better off making her into razorblades?

Well, if you can afford to be without her, I think she should be scrapped.
A rebuild will be pretty expensive, and not really make a huge improvement, she will still only be usable as a huge CD ship, and you could get a modern, almost as good CD ship for the same cost.

Or you could build 2 modern minelayers and bunch of sweepers for the same cost, something that would do more to discourage people from cruising up and down the cost.

[Carthaginian]

Well, if you can afford to be without her, I think she should be scrapped.
A rebuild will be pretty expensive, and not really make a huge improvement, she will still only be usable as a huge CD ship, and you could get a modern, almost as good CD ship for the same cost.

Or you could build 2 modern minelayers and bunch of sweepers for the same cost, something that would do more to discourage people from cruising up and down the cost.

I don't think I could be without her, otherwise I'd have not planned to put so much into her.
I need those heavy gun tubes at sea, and this is the cheapest way to get them there. The Pacific coast isn't a really high priority; 3 of these ships refitted over the next 4-5 years would give me a good defense-oriented force, especially considering the massive loss of capital ships in the Pacific Rim powers. Frankly, it'll take the DKB and NS at least that long to gain a force of ships that could threaten these ships after this refit... and probably it'll take them a lot longer to build a comfortable enough margin to fight them and risk loosing.

These ships supported by a few good scout cruisers and a good destroyer fleet will provide security, if not striking power, for my Pacific fleet until about 1918.


Oh, the CSA don't do mines.
Look at the coastal currents in our waters.
The mines will risk more harm to our own ships than anyone else's since the currents will simply sweep them along our coastlines rather than taking them out to sea.

[The Rock Doctor]

I guess what I meant by my question was if the CSA could build a strudy CDS on 5,800 t light that would give the refitted San Jacinto a run for her money.  You can build a six-pack of cans, yes, that is true.  Korpen offers a sound alternative, too.

So the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS?

Hey - you're part monarchy too, Foxy.

I've gotten a distinct sense from multiple posts that the CSA does not like NS whatsoever.  I've no real doubt that the Austrians are better thought of in Richmond, regardless of how pretty Borys may think he is (*shudders*).

[Carthaginian]

I guess what I meant by my question was if the CSA could build a strudy CDS on 5,800 t light that would give the refitted San Jacinto a run for her money.  You can build a six-pack of cans, yes, that is true.  Korpen offers a sound alternative, too.

Well, all my 6kt coastal design studies have come up a bit short.
I might try another since I was using 13.5" guns instead of 12" guns on the others, though.
Still, just somethnig about having the ship ready in 2 halves rather than 3 halves makes me like the refit better.

So the Catholic Monarchy of Austria is better than the Protestant Republic of NS?

Hey - you're part monarchy too, Foxy.

I've gotten a distinct sense from multiple posts that the CSA does not like NS whatsoever.  I've no real doubt that the Austrians are better thought of in Richmond, regardless of how pretty Borys may think he is (*shudders*).

NS started a war of aggression against many nations that the CSA had good relations with; that's generally not a good thing to do, even if on good terms with a nation yourself.
The Habsburgs are not a favorite in Richmond, either- public opinion favors the Brandenburgers on the German Issue- but the public of the CSA is warming towards them as the war progresses. The closer the war brings the two Germanic States, the more friendly the CSA will get with the Habsburger Kaiserreich.

Still, NS is not beyond redemption in the CSA... yet.
A speedy end to the war they started would be a first step towards reconciliation.