what ya think to far ahead for 1906?

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I consider the 4x2x10" design to be much more scary to the opponents.

I would only fiddle around with stability-fireplatform-seakeeping.
I would even sacrifice platform to 60, and seakeeping to 1,20 and bring up stability as much as possible.
I do not like designs with stability below 1,1, and consider 1,05 to be the minimum.
Borys

[P3D]

Belt is not deep enough. At least 10', preferably more. However, 7" belt is adequate, I'd just add an inch to the turret face.
Also, make a drawing to determine the exact extent of the belt and freeboard. I find the 1pixel=1foot scale the best.

[Tanthalas]

10" Mark 2

Italia AC-1906, Italia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10,638 t light; 11,130 t standard; 12,400 t normal; 13,416 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   477.00 ft / 475.00 ft x 63.00 ft (Bulges 73.00 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   145.39 m / 144.78 m x 19.20 m (Bulges 22.25 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (4x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.00lbs / 28.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,952 lbs / 2,246 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   353.50 ft / 107.75 m   10.45 ft / 3.19 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   121.49 ft / 37.03 m   10.45 ft / 3.19 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   353.50 ft / 107.75 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.00" / 25 mm   353.50 ft / 107.75 m   22.11 ft / 6.74 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29,615 shp / 22,092 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,286 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   586 - 763

Cost:
   £1.101 million / $4.404 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 621 tons, 5.0 %
   Armour: 3,918 tons, 31.6 %
      - Belts: 1,737 tons, 14.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 289 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 1,073 tons, 8.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 738 tons, 6.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 81 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,481 tons, 11.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,519 tons, 36.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,762 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,972 lbs / 6,791 Kg = 29.9 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 18.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.30

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.501
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.51 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (13 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (13 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m before break)
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 113.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,950 Square feet or 1,853 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 663 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.86
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Noticed that Torpedo bulkhead a bit shallow, add 1-2".
I'd have some TTs , just to finish off damaged ships.
85 shells per gun is very low. Make it 150.
Do not use bulges. They'd just make your ship sink faster, as they would flood easily from shell hits. As your stability is marginal, you don't want that.
Block coefficient is high. Decrease draft, increase displacement. Or make only B turret superfiring, and move X to amidships into Q position.

[Tanthalas]

or just go back to the 8" varient which is what i had pland for it origianly anyway.  LOL

[Ithekro]

Well there is always ultra-Blucher.

Capitan

Italian Armoured Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   13,904 t light; 14,506 t standard; 16,000 t normal; 17,131 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   492.00 ft / 492.00 ft x 82.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   149.96 m / 149.96 m x 24.99 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      14 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns in single mounts, 40.61lbs / 18.42kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,677 lbs / 2,121 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   172.00 ft / 52.43 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.00" / 25 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   24.00 ft / 7.32 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46,000 shp / 34,316 Kw = 24.55 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts (Bunkerage = 2,689 tons)

Complement:
   710 - 924

Cost:
   £1.300 million / $5.199 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 585 tons, 3.7 %
   Armour: 5,200 tons, 32.5 %
      - Belts: 2,160 tons, 13.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 284 tons, 1.8 %
      - Armament: 1,630 tons, 10.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,016 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 110 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,300 tons, 14.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,720 tons, 35.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,096 tons, 13.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,698 lbs / 7,574 Kg = 65.2 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.2 m
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.555
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Stern:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.32 ft / 6.50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,466 Square feet or 2,552 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 682 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

If you build the 8" gunned one, make one that you can build with your own 1905 turbines. Otherwise it should be able to do something like 26-27 knots, looking at what type of ships you might encounter.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I would not bother with TDS on anything smaller than 20,000.
But it could be just me.

Borys

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Could you sim
10" Mark 2
Italia AC-1906, Italia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

With the following changes:
- 9,5" main guns, with 120 shells
- only one turret superifiring
- check if there is a difference between "centerline ends" and "centerline distributed"
- no TDS
- beam increased to 21 metres


I thing you yukued something with the hull:
raised  forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, lowered quarterdeck

Borys

The Habsburg fleet might be interested in a brace of such ships, if the Welsche would be interested to sell.

Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
I would not bother with TDS on anything smaller than 20,000.
But it could be just me.

Borys

I would rather say "no TB on less then 25m beam".

But less then 30-40mm TB is quite pointless as it is likely to fail, and then it is more a libillity then an asset.

[Korpen]

85 shells per gun is very low. Make it 150.

85 shells is more then enough, it is after close to one hour of firing at normal ROF, something that should allow for a decisive result.
More then 100 round per barrel is really on necessary if you plan on fighting several engagements far from port or fighting at extreme ranges (were the hit % is around 1% or less).
Fewer shell means a smaller magazine, so less armour is needed to protect it, as well as less damage if a shells should detonate the magazine.

And that is without looking into barrel life...

[Tanthalas]

9.5" varient

Italia AC-1906, Italia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10,757 t light; 11,224 t standard; 12,500 t normal; 13,521 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   477.00 ft / 475.00 ft x 63.00 ft (Bulges 73.00 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   145.39 m / 144.78 m x 19.20 m (Bulges 22.25 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 9.50" / 241 mm guns (4x2 guns), 428.69lbs / 194.45kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.00lbs / 28.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,382 lbs / 1,987 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   353.50 ft / 107.75 m   10.45 ft / 3.19 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   121.49 ft / 37.03 m   10.45 ft / 3.19 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   353.50 ft / 107.75 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 114 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.00" / 25 mm   353.50 ft / 107.75 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29,811 shp / 22,239 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,297 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   590 - 768

Cost:
   £1.047 million / $4.187 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 549 tons, 4.4 %
   Armour: 4,145 tons, 33.2 %
      - Belts: 1,888 tons, 15.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 327 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 1,096 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 741 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 93 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,491 tons, 11.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,472 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,743 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     16,163 lbs / 7,332 Kg = 37.7 x 9.5 " / 241 mm shells or 3.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 2.8 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 18.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.505
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.51 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (13 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (13 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m before break)
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 106.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 116.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,024 Square feet or 1,860 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 654 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.87
      - Overall: 1.02
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[swamphen]

I thing you yukued something with the hull:

[Borys]

Ahoj!
9,5 inch variant - nice. I'm divided if it is better or worse than my attempt.

Borys

[P3D]

85 shells per gun is very low. Make it 150.

85 shells is more then enough, it is after close to one hour of firing at normal ROF, something that should allow for a decisive result.
More then 100 round per barrel is really on necessary if you plan on fighting several engagements far from port or fighting at extreme ranges (were the hit % is around 1% or less).
Fewer shell means a smaller magazine, so less armour is needed to protect it, as well as less damage if a shells should detonate the magazine.
And that is without looking into barrel life...

Most IRL navy would not have agreed with you. Even battleships with large caliber shells had usually 100  rounds per gun, save the Littorio, Tegethoff and the Japanese dreadnoughts classes.
A 9-10" gun should be able to make a RoF of 3RPM without any problem - and shell time of flight to 12km is around 20s. And the ammo stowage of the 8" cruisers was usually between 125 and 200 per gun.
Also, a colonial cruiser is IMO more likely to engange in several prolonged battles than a battleline.