what ya think to far ahead for 1906?

[Tanthalas]

Armoured Cruiser laid down 1906

Displacement:
   9,855 t light; 10,229 t standard; 11,825 t normal; 13,101 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   467.00 ft / 465.00 ft x 56.00 ft (Bulges 66.00 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   142.34 m / 141.73 m x 17.07 m (Bulges 20.12 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.00lbs / 28.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,752 lbs / 1,248 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   384.65 ft / 117.24 m   8.98 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm     80.33 ft / 24.48 m   8.98 ft / 2.74 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   384.65 ft / 117.24 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 127 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.00" / 25 mm   384.65 ft / 117.24 m   22.60 ft / 6.89 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29,144 shp / 21,741 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 6,600nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,872 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   566 - 737

Cost:
   £0.927 million / $3.706 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 346 tons, 2.9 %
   Armour: 3,824 tons, 32.3 %
      - Belts: 1,880 tons, 15.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 322 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 867 tons, 7.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 666 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 89 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,082 tons, 17.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,604 tons, 30.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,970 tons, 16.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,707 lbs / 6,218 Kg = 53.5 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 73 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.33

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.539
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.05 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (9 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (9 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m before break)
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 123.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,994 Square feet or 1,672 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 114 lbs/sq ft or 555 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.71
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

I know i cant build the turbines yet, but i could always buy them... but feal free to shoot her full of holes

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I've seen worse :)

IMO a little too few 5 inchers, as the are only 4 per side. I'd use 12 or 16 secondaries myself.

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

Shoot her full of holes?  But we've only just met...

B and X turrets may not be capable of firing over A and Y - depending on your BB/AC tech at the time.  That might encourage an en-echelon layout instead.

Agree with Bory's point, and suggest adding 50 to 100 t of miscellaneous weight.  Perhaps the end and upper belt armor can be reduced slightly to allow for this.

Otherwise, it's a sturdy and well-armored cruiser.

[Desertfox]

A slow Constellation, not bad but very heavy armor for her size.

[Tanthalas]

Italia AC-1906, Italia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1906

Displacement:
   10,139 t light; 10,531 t standard; 12,000 t normal; 13,175 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   467.00 ft / 465.00 ft x 56.00 ft (Bulges 66.00 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   142.34 m / 141.73 m x 17.07 m (Bulges 20.12 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns (4x2 guns), 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.00lbs / 28.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3,000 lbs / 1,361 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   384.65 ft / 117.24 m   8.98 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm     80.33 ft / 24.48 m   8.98 ft / 2.74 m
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   384.65 ft / 117.24 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 127 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.00" / 25 mm   384.65 ft / 117.24 m   22.60 ft / 6.89 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29,499 shp / 22,007 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,645 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   573 - 745

Cost:
   £0.966 million / $3.865 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 377 tons, 3.1 %
   Armour: 3,888 tons, 32.4 %
      - Belts: 1,882 tons, 15.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 322 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 923 tons, 7.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 671 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 90 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 2,107 tons, 17.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,667 tons, 30.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,861 tons, 15.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,531 lbs / 6,138 Kg = 52.9 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 2.4 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.31

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.547
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.05 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (9 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (9 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m before break)
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 127.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 18,129 Square feet or 1,684 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 115 lbs/sq ft or 561 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.71
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

More 5" guns, misc weight added, as for the armor and speed well I tend to like my cruisers heavily armored, and she would be the fastest thing in my fleet if I actually build her.  Slow Constellation eh suppose since this idea is fully formed ill have to go look at them, I haven't looked at anyone else's ships yet wanted my ideas to be my own.

[Carthaginian]

I think that she's scary. Heavy guns, thick armor and good speed.
She's be the perfect flagship for an Africa squadron.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The doctored picture is awesome.
And excelent last generation AC, before dreadnaught gunned AC come along.
The problem are the various 6x12 inch ships out there, which are about her speed or slightly faster.
How would this ship look with 8x10 inch?
Or 2x1x12 inch and 2x2x8 inch?
Borys

 

[Ithekro]

You mean like the Vittorio Emanuele-class?  Two single 12" guns and six twin 8" turrests on the sides and 21 knots speed for a 1901 battleship

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Yes. Something along those lines.

The 12 inch singles would be a warning to anything afloat - "I can hurt you", whereas the 8 inchers (although the Italian histrical calibre was 7,5") would do the work on lesser armoured areas.

Maybe this ship is in a a sucky size range - too big for 7,5" inchers, and just-not-big-enough for 10 inchers?

I'd try to make her 24 or 25 knots, even at the cost of armour (gasp!) but a fine ship nonetheless.

Borys

[Tanthalas]

The restrictions I place on my designs when I start them place strict tonnage limits on each class, the target weight for this ship was 11000 tons. Which I already exceeded by 1000 tons much bigger and she replaces other ships i'm planning on building.  As for the chop job you most likely can't even tell that used to be SMS Bulcher LOL.  Ill see about 10" guns but i'm not sure they will fit.

[Tanthalas]

The problem with more speed is stability she gets really shaky with much more speed.  As for gun sizes lol I generated a bunch of big gun reports to see what would work best.  Italians were using metric as were most European countries I as an American use SAE measure so if it is a 7.58923" gun I round it up to 8" just makes my life easier and saves them looking stupid.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Italy uses metric for everything but its guns :)
The old connection to Vickers (or was it Armstrong) still shows in its naval guns. Guess WHY :) do the Italians have a 76,2mm naval rifle?
See here:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/index_weapons.htm
But of course this Italy is yours, and if you want 250mm guns (whuch nobody ever used) you are free to do so.
Borys

[Tanthalas]

10" gun variant (also uses 1909 turbines which I would definitely have to buy)

Italia AC-1906, Italia Armoured Cruiser laid down 1906 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   10,270 t light; 10,754 t standard; 12,000 t normal; 12,997 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   477.00 ft / 475.00 ft x 60.00 ft (Bulges 70.00 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   145.39 m / 144.78 m x 18.29 m (Bulges 21.34 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      8 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns (4x2 guns), 500.00lbs / 226.80kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.00lbs / 28.12kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.00lbs / 5.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,952 lbs / 2,246 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 85

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   365.37 ft / 111.36 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   109.61 ft / 33.41 m   9.30 ft / 2.83 m
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   365.37 ft / 111.36 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 118 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.00" / 25 mm   365.37 ft / 111.36 m   22.12 ft / 6.74 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   7.00" / 178 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      7.00" / 178 mm
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 7.00" / 178 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 28,934 shp / 21,585 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,243 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   573 - 745

Cost:
   £1.083 million / $4.334 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 621 tons, 5.2 %
   Armour: 3,706 tons, 30.9 %
      - Belts: 1,613 tons, 13.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 299 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 1,009 tons, 8.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 706 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 79 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,447 tons, 12.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,396 tons, 36.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,730 tons, 14.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,058 lbs / 6,376 Kg = 28.1 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.03
   Metacentric height 2.5 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 18.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.505
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.79 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 54
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.00 ft / 0.61 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (12 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (12 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m before break)
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 118.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,080 Square feet or 1,773 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 103 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 657 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.87
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[swamphen]

Great pic; the funnels look a little awkward IMHO but otherwise the 8" version is, I think, a very sound design.

I'm not sure the 10" version is a succifficent advance to bother with the added cost...

N-verse Blücher is a clone of the @ Regina Elena, royalty fees can be paid at your nearest DKB embassy.  ;D

...and the DKB might be willing to supply turbines, either direct from Krupps or as a licensed design (tech trade), for tech, cash, ships or territory...

[Tanthalas]

I thought the funnels looked a tad funny to then I remembered how horribly lame they looked on USS Mobile bay (which I served on for 4 years) and decided they were fine.  As for turbine tech an arrangement has already been made, won't be able to use them till 1908 but meh it will do, just have to lay her down later than I really wanted to.