Small Orange ships and MWVs

Started by P3D, March 15, 2007, 05:15:49 AM

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Korpen

Quote from: P³D on July 17, 2007, 03:27:37 PM
Even the 10t sets are in  the misc weight allowance.
So why mention anything about a 5ton set if they are using 10 ton sets?
Card-carrying member of the Battlecruiser Fan Club.


P3D

A small ship intended for coastal patrol, rescue and secondary mine laying and sweeping duties. I actually have the notion to make these boats diesel-powered (2x500HP engines) adding an extra 1000nm range or 10t misc. weight, but this I rejected due to fuel availability concerns.
Range requirement is determined by unrefuelled range on a two-way travel between main Orange ports at 12kts - or between Luanda and Walvis bay at reduced speed.

Orange patrol boat laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   200 t light; 206 t standard; 244 t normal; 274 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   120.00 ft / 120.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
   36.58 m / 36.58 m x 6.10 m  x 1.83 m

Armament:
      1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft
      2 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, 1 raised mount
   Weight of broadside 14 lbs / 6 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,159 shp / 865 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 1,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 68 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   30 - 40

Cost:
   £0.017 million / $0.066 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 58 tons, 23.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 89 tons, 36.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 44 tons, 18.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 52 tons, 21.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     332 lbs / 151 Kg = 24.6 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 0.5 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 11.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.593
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.95 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (45 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (7.00 ft / 2.13 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.15 ft / 3.09 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,704 Square feet or 158 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 120 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.77
      - Longitudinal: 9.80
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

P3D

Managed to sim a ship pretty close to the historical Laforey class, but on 75t less displacement. Range, speed, armament, freeboard roughly the same.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1905 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 777 t standard; 949 t normal; 1,086 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   260.00 ft / 260.00 ft x 26.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   79.25 m / 79.25 m x 7.92 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      3 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      2 - 0.39" / 10.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 96 lbs / 44 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   4 - 18.0" / 457.2 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,438 shp / 16,739 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 309 tons

Complement:
   85 - 111

Cost:
   £0.110 million / $0.438 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 1.3 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.3 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 523 tons, 55.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 188 tons, 19.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 199 tons, 20.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     184 lbs / 84 Kg = 5.8 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.54
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 33 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.491
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.12 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (30 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (7.00 ft / 2.13 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   9.66 ft / 2.94 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 190.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,469 Square feet or 415 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 44 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 115 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.51
      - Longitudinal: 1.04
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

P3D

#19
The updated patrol boat, with VTEs, build following merchant standards. Range got increased. Can be fitted with a twin torpedo launcher in war (models withdrawn from first-line service).

Misc. weight for torpedoes, W/T, motor launch, and minesweeping equipment.

Cost is $0.07 and 0.07BP each.

Orange Patrol Boat, laid down 1909

Displacement:
   249 t light; 257 t standard; 313 t normal; 358 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   132.00 ft / 132.00 ft x 21.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
   40.23 m / 40.23 m x 6.40 m  x 1.83 m

Armament:
      1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      2 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
   Weight of broadside 14 lbs / 6 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   2 - 16.0" / 406.4 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 1,322 ihp / 986 Kw = 16.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 100 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   36 - 48

Cost:
   £0.024 million / $0.098 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 102 tons, 32.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 106 tons, 33.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 64 tons, 20.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 12.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     325 lbs / 148 Kg = 24.1 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.23
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.06
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.60

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.659
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.29 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 67 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 44
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (45 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (7.00 ft / 2.13 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.15 ft / 3.09 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 123.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,113 Square feet or 196 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 122 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 126 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.80
      - Longitudinal: 7.06
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

P3D

#20
Orange Korvette proposal for 1911. The better engine techs (Blessed be those dice!) allowed one more gun, and adequate misc. weight for FCS (25t) torpedoes(6t) WT (10t) mines/sweeping equipment (9t) installed. Long-range radio communication is the task of flottilla leaders (either cruisers or 1000t destroyers built later).

Orange Korvette laid down 1911 (engine 1912)

Displacement:
   750 t light; 779 t standard; 926 t normal; 1,044 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   260.00 ft / 260.00 ft x 26.00 ft x 9.50 ft (normal load)
   79.25 m / 79.25 m x 7.92 m  x 2.90 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      4 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 128 lbs / 58 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 22,283 shp / 16,623 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 265 tons

Complement:
   83 - 109

Cost:
   £0.107 million / $0.430 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.7 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 483 tons, 52.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 201 tons, 21.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 176 tons, 19.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 45 tons, 4.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     186 lbs / 84 Kg = 5.8 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 1.0 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 37 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.46

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.505
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.12 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.50 ft / 4.42 m
      - Mid (35 %):      14.50 ft / 4.42 m (7.50 ft / 2.29 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Stern:      7.50 ft / 2.29 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.55 ft / 3.22 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 186.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 36.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,523 Square feet or 420 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 47 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 117 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 0.55
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is extremely poor
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

Sachmle

QuoteOrange Korvette proposal for 1911. The better engine techs (Blessed be those dice!) allowed one more gun, and adequate misc. weight for FCS (25t) torpedoes(6t) WT (10t) mines/sweeping equipment (9t) installed. Long-range radio communication is the task of flottilla leaders (either cruisers or 1000t destroyers built later).
I believe, and therefore am probably mistaken, that the WT weight was included in the FCS weight, therefore you should have another 10t misc weight to play with.  Not bad little ship in general, although that seakeeping is eek.. :D
"All treaties between great states cease to be binding when they come in conflict with the struggle for existence."
Otto von Bismarck

"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
Kaiser Wilhelm

"If stupidity were painfull I would be deaf from all the screaming." Sam A. Grim

P3D

Ships with similar freeboards were no unknown of running 6-8hrs full power trials (33-35kts) in gale-force winds. There were no destroyers of similar size with higher freeboard. It is rather historical, so I don't see why it would be the problem. SS2 allows building ships with too much excess freeboard, therefore N3-verse is full with such ships which are rather miniature cruisers not destroyers - and I'd like to avoid building such ships if possible.
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

Korpen

#23
Quote from: P3D on January 14, 2008, 03:15:41 AM
Ships with similar freeboards were no unknown of running 6-8hrs full power trials (33-35kts) in gale-force winds. There were no destroyers of similar size with higher freeboard. It is rather historical, so I don't see why it would be the problem. SS2 allows building ships with too much excess freeboard, therefore N3-verse is full with such ships which are rather miniature cruisers not destroyers - and I'd like to avoid building such ships if possible.
That is also a effect of us building them for radically different mission profiles then was historically the case.

Generally TBs here are several knots slower the IRL, but better armed and much better seaboats and more habitable.
And i see nothing wrong with that.
Card-carrying member of the Battlecruiser Fan Club.

Carthaginian

#24
Well, I personally don't understand how they will handle anything but coastal work... should they deploy in any kind of real weather, they would face all the problems that my suggested 1910/11 destroyers would face, right down to difficult torpedo launching. They easily have the poorest seaboat rating of any ship class in the N-verse; I'd see them having an tremendously hard time operating in gale force winds while doing anything other steaming fortheir lives. Seaboat quility is 'relative' after all, and SS says that .70 is a minimum for 'workable' performance... that means that they lack seaworthiness for something their size, and thus are pretty dog-gone lousy ships. Running trials is NOT requiring the ship to keep a fighting trim, and thus though it could run at 30 knots, it would be exceptionally hard-pressed to do anything but run 30 knots in those conditions... no guns firing, torps having trouble launching, etc. Lord only knows how calm the seas would have to be for the ships to actually retain any useful degree of handling.

I'd say that 'Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability' is a waring we should see on torpedo boats and coastal ships only... not something that's intended to go to sea. If NS destroyers were suffering from handling problems during the war with their 1.00+ seaboat ratings, these ships would be utterly useless.
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in old Baghdad;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

P3D

QuoteThat is also a effect of us building them for radically different mission profiles then was historically the case.

Generally TBs here are several knots slower the IRL, but better armed and much better seaboats and more habitable.
And i see nothing wrong with that.
The rules allows buiding destroyers which are anything but destroyers in name. We could even attempt to sim real destroyers with SS2, but that met the resistance of some player (you were especially against making rules anything realistic).


Carthaginian,

Historical evidence shows that destroyers with similar or LOWER freeboard hardly had big problems in bad weather. They survived like 70 degrees inclination, made 30 kts+ in gale force wind. And we have no historical evidence whatsoever if N3-verse "destroyers" would behave as SS2 predicts.

I'd rather have the opinion of the moderators that what type of destroyers they want. One that has at least looks like a real world one but slower, or one that is a slow, overgunned, over-torpedo-equipped, or having even deck and belt armor, essentially a small cruiser - obeying the letter of the rules only.

Because if I build historical ships, and be severely handicapped by it (as there are "destroyers" around with over unity seakeeping, the broadside of a protectred cruiser, etc.), and even having armor (something destroyers did not have).

The 0.50 cross-sectional strength is not really representing flimsy, weak structure that would break up in any breeze. It is necessary as DDs usually had much lighter machinery, which cannot be simmed other way (could be, actually). With lighter machinery you could sim historical (altough pre-WWI) ships with 1.00 overall strength.
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

Tanthalas

Having atempted on several ocasions to sim real DDs I have given up on that line of reasoning, they simply dont work even using Historical range and preformance numbers
"He either fears his fate too much,
Or his desserts are small,
Who dares not put it to the touch,
To win or lose it all!"

James Graham, 5th Earl of Montrose
1612 to 1650
Royalist General during the English Civil War

Carthaginian

Quote from: P3D on January 14, 2008, 11:33:29 AM
Historical evidence shows that destroyers with similar or LOWER freeboard hardly had big problems in bad weather. They survived like 70 degrees inclination, made 30 kts+ in gale force wind. And we have no historical evidence whatsoever if N3-verse "destroyers" would behave as SS2 predicts.

If we throw out the SS predictions, then we are running on W.A.G.'s, and throwing out the only system we have for determining performance. We need to stick to what we have... start saying 'well, this isn't the case for X' and the entire system starts to take a hit. Either the seaboat rating has relevance to a ship's handling related to it's size, or there is no correlation whatsoever, and no ship should be handicapped on this basis.

Quote1 - Destroyers have a minimal overall and cross-sectional strength of 0.50 - this is to represent lightweight destroyer machinery, as realistic speeds cannot be met with keeping composite strength to 1.00.  For ships of composite strength below 1.00, we as mods reserve the right to deal out damage or even loss in heavy weather.

For this rule to work as written, then seaboat quality must have some bearing on how well the ship handles in rough seas, and thus provide guidelines for the mods to determine what degree of damage a ship would sustain during heavy weather. If one player sacrifices speed and firepower in order to get seakeeping, his destroyers should be allowed to handle better and prove more durable during poor conditions than someone that focused on these attributes over seakeeping.

If you want a boat that's fast as a thief... that's fine. I have a 750t destroyer that's very similar and has just as realistic a freeboard and it has a FAR better seaboat rating. I sacrificed DOCK SIZE to get this, but attained it on the same tonnage and cost as your hull.

You gotta give something up.
This ship would, IMO, be so prone to sustaining damage during poor weather that it would be unusable in worse than 10 foot seas and would be swamped in gale force winds almost half the time.

She's not a fleet destroyer... she's a giant harbor defense craft.
Like I said, if NS and DKB destroyers with double that craft's seakeeping rating and even higher were having 'performance problems' during the war, this ship's performance would be entirely underwhelming.

Quote from: P3D on January 14, 2008, 11:33:29 AMI'd rather have the opinion of the moderators that what type of destroyers they want.

WHY?
Players are building destroyers within the rules, and are grossly happy with their performance. They make them with a flavor that fits their nation and with designs that fit within the specified goals for the design.

What more do we need?
If they are different than 'reality' then so be it... this is not reality.
So 'ere's to you, Fuzzy-Wuzzy, at your 'ome in old Baghdad;
You're a pore benighted 'eathen but a first-class fightin' man;
We gives you your certificate, an' if you want it signed
We'll come an' 'ave a romp with you whenever you're inclined.

P3D

Quote from: Carthaginian on January 14, 2008, 04:00:58 PM
If you want a boat that's fast as a thief... that's fine. I have a 750t destroyer that's very similar and has just as realistic a freeboard and it has a FAR better seaboat rating. I sacrificed DOCK SIZE to get this, but attained it on the same tonnage and cost as your hull.

You gotta give something up.
This ship would, IMO, be so prone to sustaining damage during poor weather that it would be unusable in worse than 10 foot seas and would be swamped in gale force winds almost half the time.

She's not a fleet destroyer... she's a giant harbor defense craft.
Like I said, if NS and DKB destroyers with double that craft's seakeeping rating and even higher were having 'performance problems' during the war, this ship's performance would be entirely underwhelming.
You are incorrect, there's no indication whatsoever that this ship won't be able to work in bad weather. Historical evidence is contrary to your assumptions, regardless of repeating them.

Your ships still have several feet higher freeboard than historical ships - even 2 or 3 feet can make a BIG difference (e.g. a 750t N3-verse destroyer having the same hull depth as a 2000t one from WWII).

Also note that dock size is not an issue with this design.
Nevertheless, I can change the characteristics to give the ship a completely unjustified freeboard just to get seakeeping over 1.00 if I have to, I will build those mini-cruisers, sacrificing only a single knot of speed.

That's why I need some Moderator input how ships with realistic freeboards should be handled - would they have a significant disadvantage over fantasy ships or not.
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas

P3D

#29
The 'mini-cruiser' version.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1912

Displacement:
   750 t light; 779 t standard; 913 t normal; 1,020 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   276.00 ft / 276.00 ft x 26.00 ft x 11.00 ft (normal load)
   84.12 m / 84.12 m x 7.92 m  x 3.35 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 128 lbs / 58 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   6 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 17,108 shp / 12,763 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 2,800nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 241 tons

Complement:
   82 - 107

Cost:
   £0.102 million / $0.408 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 16 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 444 tons, 48.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 240 tons, 26.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 163 tons, 17.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 5.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     245 lbs / 111 Kg = 7.7 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.33
   Metacentric height 1.1 ft / 0.3 m
   Roll period: 10.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.405
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.62 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.61 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 65 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (37 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m (9.00 ft / 2.74 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.91 ft / 3.63 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 176.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 111.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,430 Square feet or 412 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 59 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 25 lbs/sq ft or 122 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 2.20
      - Overall: 0.58
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
The first purpose of a warship is to remain afloat. Anon.
Below 40 degrees, there is no law. Below 50 degrees, there is no God. sailor's maxim on weather in the Southern seas