Posible New Italian "Light" Battle Ship

[Tanthalas]

Itali XBB-1, Italia Light Battle Ship laid down 1906

Displacement:
   13,026 t light; 14,049 t standard; 16,198 t normal; 17,917 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   506.36 ft / 500.00 ft x 61.65 ft (Bulges 71.65 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   154.34 m / 152.40 m x 18.79 m (Bulges 21.84 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      9 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      32 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (16x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 7,990 lbs / 3,624 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   9.42 ft / 2.87 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   100.00 ft / 30.48 m   9.42 ft / 2.87 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 6.00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 20,803 shp / 15,519 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,868 tons

Complement:
   717 - 933

Cost:
   £1.484 million / $5.936 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 999 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 5,315 tons, 32.8 %
      - Belts: 1,725 tons, 10.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 940 tons, 5.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,580 tons, 15.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 69 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,351 tons, 8.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,319 tons, 32.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,172 tons, 19.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 43 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,468 lbs / 8,377 Kg = 27.8 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 17.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 74 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.98
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.48

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.633
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.98 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.60 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Stern:      15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.26 ft / 4.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 96.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,247 Square feet or 2,160 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 697 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.53
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Dont think i broke any rules, I have supers and i have trips.  I am however like 200 shp per shaft over my limit so if that is a problem ill rework her

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Practically unarmoured. Belt is simply too narrow.
The deck is way too thick - 2 inches is absolutely enough. Conning tower should be Turret Face/Main Belt thickness, if not more.
And you don't have enough space to place 16 five inch guns on each. Casemattes are advisable, too.
Borys

[Tanthalas]

Realy i would have thought with her low freeboard the belt would be plenty high(mumbles about trusting springsharp to figure these things out),  as for the guns you are right there realy isnt room to make them all fit as i have her laid out now =P which raises a question granted superfiring secondaries are not curently available(well i dont have them anyway). If and when i do get them how large a refit would it take to make them work? As i stated previously dont want to break the rules just want to push the limit of what is posible.  The deck i will fix post haste.  Coning Tower well i figured it was plenty heavy as i realy dont want my ships close to their oponents.  Meh back to the drawing board

Oh also how high a belt would you advise since springsharp has decided that is all i need?

[Borys]

Main belt - 13 feet (about half is below the waterline)
Upper belt - 8 feet (to reach from MB to weather deck)

[Korpen]

I agree on Borys observations, the deck is far too thick and the layout of the secondaries are not functional.

As for the height of the belts, I think you will need around 4m, as you do not have an upper belt. Considering the amount of fuel the ship have, a difference in draft of around 0,8m between normal and max load is expected. This means that almost and flooding while the ships is close to full load will submerge the entire waterline protection.

Also, I do not think Italy have oil firing tech.
But reducing the deck should free up great amount of weight that could be used to increase both the thickness as well as height of the main belt.

[Tanthalas]

Reworked

Itali XBB-1, Italia Light Battle Ship laid down 1906

Displacement:
   13,246 t light; 14,324 t standard; 16,500 t normal; 18,241 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   506.36 ft / 500.00 ft x 61.65 ft (Bulges 72.65 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   154.34 m / 152.40 m x 18.79 m (Bulges 22.14 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      9 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x3 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 8,776 lbs / 3,981 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   100.00 ft / 30.48 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   9.00" / 229 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 21,095 shp / 15,737 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,918 tons

Complement:
   727 - 946

Cost:
   £1.577 million / $6.307 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,097 tons, 6.6 %
   Armour: 5,126 tons, 31.1 %
      - Belts: 3,149 tons, 19.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 974 tons, 5.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 862 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 140 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,370 tons, 8.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,610 tons, 34.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,254 tons, 19.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 43 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     17,798 lbs / 8,073 Kg = 20.6 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 2.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 18.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.99
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.636
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.88 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.60 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Stern:      15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.26 ft / 4.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 95.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,310 Square feet or 2,166 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 150 lbs/sq ft or 731 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.57
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


There trimd the main deck, fixed the belt problem, increased the gun size & as for the boilers if i dont have oil no biggie i can easily change that in the final draft of her.

[Korpen]

Reworked

Itali XBB-1, Italia Light Battle Ship laid down 1906

Huge improvment!

But the image does not fit the report, the ship in the image have a much lower stem, and a midbreak about 60% down the hull.

But not a bad ship at all :)

[Ithekro]

On a historical note.  The Italian Navy, as we know it, was the fast navy of the world.  22 - 23 knots seem to be the average speed of their battleships after 1905 and 20 knots being the slow ships after 1898.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.99

This is not good - minimal damage and bye-bye broadside ...

Borys

[Tanthalas]

On a historical note.  The Italian Navy, as we know it, was the fast navy of the world.  22 - 23 knots seem to be the average speed of their battleships after 1905 and 20 knots being the slow ships after 1898.

I originaly had her set as a 23 knot bb, the problem being that at my curent tech level the best i can do is a 20 knot top speed for her due to the fact i can only have 5000 hp/shaft.

Ahoj!
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.99

This is not good - minimal damage and bye-bye broadside ...

Borys

Would we realisticly know this? Or is it somthing i would have to learn from actualy building the ship?  Just wondering

[Borys]

Ahoj!
If you are almost on top of the "end on fire only" warning, which you get at 1,0 recoil effect, this means your design is in some way flawed. It may be assumed that any further deterioration of the ships's charactersitics - like taking damage - will make the situation even worse. Thus leading to loss of capability to fire to the sides.

Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

From my perspective, it's a very narrow hull (especially above the waterline, where there is no bulge) in which to fit a triple 12" turret.  Dante Alighieri historically had a 26.6 m beam, and the Russian and Austrian BBs were wider than that.  Apart from better accommodating the turrets, a wider beam should take care of this recoil issue.

I'd seek thicker barbette armor, too; six inches won't stop a heavy shell.

You'd probably get a more balanced design by reverting to 11" guns and using the extra hull strength to improve the belt and turret protection.

[Tanthalas]

Ironicly im actualy playing with that right now, The improving armor and 11" guns.  As for a narow hull ya i know i was thinking about that but she also has a very short hull, at 500' some world war 2 light cruisers were longer than her.

The dimensions actualy are stolen from a ww2 BC and then tweeked, she is actualy in the original form the USS Guam.  It started as a project to see how small you could make the guam and still make everything fit

Here is where she stands atm
Itali XBB-1, Italia Light Battle Ship laid down 1906

Displacement:
   13,482 t light; 14,413 t standard; 16,598 t normal; 18,345 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   506.36 ft / 500.00 ft x 61.65 ft (Bulges 73.65 ft) x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   154.34 m / 152.40 m x 18.79 m (Bulges 22.45 m)  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      9 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x3 guns), 665.50lbs / 301.87kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      16 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns in single mounts, 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 6,990 lbs / 3,170 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Ends:   7.00" / 178 mm   100.00 ft / 30.48 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
   Upper:   7.00" / 178 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 123 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.10" / 28 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   24.20 ft / 7.38 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 21,174 shp / 15,796 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 15.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,932 tons

Complement:
   730 - 950

Cost:
   £1.398 million / $5.593 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 874 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 5,846 tons, 35.2 %
      - Belts: 3,245 tons, 19.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 315 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armament: 1,287 tons, 7.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 859 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 140 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,375 tons, 8.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,345 tons, 32.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,115 tons, 18.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 43 tons, 0.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     20,602 lbs / 9,345 Kg = 31.0 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 3.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 2.9 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 18.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.40

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.631
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.79 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 9.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 2.46 ft / 0.75 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.60 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Quarterdeck (19 %):   15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Stern:      15.65 ft / 4.77 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.26 ft / 4.96 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 94.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,204 Square feet or 2,156 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 696 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.38
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

150 Main Battery shells are not necessary. Historically 80 to 120 were carried.

Borys

[swamphen]

Also, I do not think Italy have oil firing tech.

That - along with uprated engines? - could always be obtained.


For a nominal fee, of course.....


Contact your friendly local Brandenburgian diplomatic official for pricing.  ;D