Cofederate 3rd Class Cruiser 1908

[Korpen]

Just a little food for thought:

Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3 500 t light; 3 651 t standard; 4 294 t normal; 4 808 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   387,14 ft / 387,14 ft x 40,35 ft x 18,04 ft (normal load)
   118,00 m / 118,00 m x 12,30 m  x 5,50 m

Armament:
      4 - 5,91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 100,00lbs / 45,36kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 4,02" / 102 mm guns (6 mounts), 25,00lbs / 11,34kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 600 lbs / 272 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,95" / 75 mm   311,68 ft / 95,00 m   9,84 ft / 3,00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 124 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,98" / 25 mm         -         2,95" / 75 mm
   2nd:   0,98" / 25 mm         -         2,95" / 75 mm

   - Armour deck: 0,98" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,52" / 64 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 30 744 shp / 22 935 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 157 tons

Complement:
   264 - 344

Cost:
   £0,389 million / $1,554 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 84 tons, 2,0 %
   Armour: 614 tons, 14,3 %
      - Belts: 367 tons, 8,5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0 %
      - Armament: 38 tons, 0,9 %
      - Armour Deck: 195 tons, 4,6 %
      - Conning Tower: 14 tons, 0,3 %
   Machinery: 1 397 tons, 32,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 365 tons, 31,8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 794 tons, 18,5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0,9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 151 lbs / 1 429 Kg = 30,6 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15
   Metacentric height 1,7 ft / 0,5 m
   Roll period: 13,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,533
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,59 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19,68 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 60 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21,36 ft / 6,51 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16,40 ft / 5,00 m (13,12 ft / 4,00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Stern:      13,12 ft / 4,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   15,16 ft / 4,62 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 121,9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,3 %
   Waterplane Area: 10 732 Square feet or 997 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 69 lbs/sq ft or 338 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,92
      - Longitudinal: 2,06
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I think I will put "not enough deckspace" into a sig or something. Even if you have, a hit on one gun will cause a domino effect and blow the whole ship. 12 guns? That was practiced on ships larger by half.

Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
I think I will put "not enough deckspace" into a sig or something. Even if you have, a hit on one gun will cause a domino effect and blow the whole ship. 12 guns? That was practiced on ships larger by half.

Borys

Disagree, look at the light cruisers laid down around 1909 (IRL), plenty of them have 12 15cm&10cm guns (but at most two 15cm) at about the same tonnage.

[Borys]

They were larger.
The 1st batch "Towns " are 5300 full load, not 4800tons like your ship. With 2x6 inch. And slower.
But we use SS, so .... goes to sulk in corner ...
Borys

[Korpen]

They were larger.
The 1st batch "Towns " are 5300 full load, not 4800tons like your ship. With 2x6 inch. And slower.
But we use SS, so .... goes to sulk in corner ...
Borys

Even if it is a bit later you got the "Caroline"-class as well as Kolberg & Magdenburg with 12 10cm guns. THe magdenburg ships later got 15cm guns.

[Borys]

You know very well that six inchers weight four times as much as 4 inchers (not to mention deck/hull strengthening), and that the German ships were rearmed with 6, 7 or 8 15cm guns.

Borys

[Carthaginian]

OK, I'll rework it to try and get the 6" guns on there and post an alternate design. Personally I prefer the idea of having a large number of smaller guns, it just seems to make the ship more versatile. My ships are going to have to fulfill a variety of roles, and the large number of smaller guns just seemed to do that better.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I think it is OK. It is a heavier Rapid Kreuzer than mine, that's all.

Borys

[Korpen]

OK, I'll rework it to try and get the 6" guns on there and post an alternate design. Personally I prefer the idea of having a large number of smaller guns, it just seems to make the ship more versatile. My ships are going to have to fulfill a variety of roles, and the large number of smaller guns just seemed to do that better.

That is why I think the compromise approach is not bad. Mounting two or four 15cm guns give the ship that extra punch, without scarifying the advantages of the lighter guns.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
1-2 six inchers are enough.
Like the Arethusas and follow ups.

Borys

[Carthaginian]

I think it is OK. It is a heavier Rapid Kreuzer than mine, that's all.

I'm probably going to stick with it, unless the other design just seems unbelievably better.

That is why I think the compromise approach is not bad. Mounting two or four 15cm guns give the ship that extra punch, without scarifying the advantages of the lighter guns.

Well, I'll loose down to 2x6" and 6x4.5" if I go that route... maybe even less than that (dropping the side mounts to 4" guns). I just don't want to sacrifice that much firepower overall to get a couple of big guns.

[Carthaginian]

Here's the 6" gun version. It replaces the two deck-level 4.5" guns with 6" guns, and all the others with 4" guns. I also added 2 more 4" guns to either broadside (yeah, it's getting crowded, but necessary in my mind). I'm not as big a fan of this design as I am of the uniform armament version.

Murfreesboro, Confederate States of America 3rd Class Cruiser laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3,500 t light; 3,638 t standard; 3,972 t normal; 4,239 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   370.00 ft / 370.00 ft x 38.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
   112.78 m / 112.78 m x 11.58 m  x 5.79 m

Armament:
      2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, majority aft
      8 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      1 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing gun in a deck mount with hoist
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      1 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 25.00lbs / 11.34kg shells, 1908 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
   Weight of broadside 454 lbs / 206 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   4 - 19.5" / 495.3 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   370.00 ft / 112.78 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm
   4th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30,000 shp / 22,380 Kw = 27.06 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 10.25 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 602 tons

Complement:
   249 - 325

Cost:
   £0.369 million / $1.477 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 68 tons, 1.7 %
   Armour: 719 tons, 18.1 %
      - Belts: 493 tons, 12.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 34 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 177 tons, 4.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 16 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,358 tons, 34.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,290 tons, 32.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 472 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 65 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,730 lbs / 1,238 Kg = 25.3 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.13
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 13.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.37

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.520
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.74 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.24 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 61 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 51
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.44 ft / 5.01 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 126.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,545 Square feet or 887 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 65 lbs/sq ft or 316 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.07
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Korpen]

Here's the 6" gun version. It replaces the two deck-level 4.5" guns with 6" guns, and all the others with 4" guns. I also added 2 more 4" guns to either broadside (yeah, it's getting crowded, but necessary in my mind). I'm not as big a fan of this design as I am of the uniform armament version.

I like this version more the your original one, as there is really nothing that the 114mm gun can do that the 102mm cannot do.
But if you could live with a bit lower seaboat rating, it seems possible that you could keep the 114mm guns in addition to the 15cm guns.

[Carthaginian]

I'm going to- for simplicity's sake- go with the all 4.5" design if I decide to produce this class. Thanks for all the feedback- it's been a huge help. With any luck, this'll be a cruiser class that can get at least 10 years of front-line service.

I'm not too concerned about the short legs because my focus is largely going to be coastal/territorial for the next 10 years. A new battleline, a new destroyer fleet, and some new light cruisers. I might build 2-3 armored cruisers of some type for the Gulf... not entirely sure, but it seems better than stationing more expensive battleships there.

I'm expecting to do a lot of scrapping and building over the next 10 years.
The 10 after that will be mostly about keeping the new ships well refitted.
After that, I'll see about getting a 'power projection' fleet underway..