Refitting the Graz

[Borys]

I used the 1885 hull date, not the c.1900 build date.

The 1885 design VTE weighted 2365 tons, the new VTE - 900 tons.
Leaves me with 1465 tons to play with.

new bunkarage - 933, up from 520, so 450 tons used;
new armament - 205 tons, from 45 (20+25) - 160 tons used;
the 11 inchers - these represent 200 mines, rails, reinforced deck etc. -  so 250 tons used;
hoists and shields have no effect;
moved torpedos underwater, to free up deck for more guns - no effect on weight;

I add 50 tons to miscalenous weight for newer w/t, bigger torpedos, more reloads;

I have used 900 tons of weight savings.


And if I leave it at this, the ship has
hull strenght 1,0
stability 1,34
gun platform - 56
seakeeping 1,12

If I eliminate the 11 inchers and replace them with 250 tons of miscalenous weight, the result is

hull strenght 1,18
stability 1,24
gun platform - 57
seakeeping 1,13.

So the big differences are in hull strenght and stability, less so or negligible in other areas.

Which version should I go with?

Either way, I had not spent all the weight savings from the engine change.
This shows in displacements:
new 3 620 t light; 3 980 t standard; 4 912 t normal; 5 658 t full load
old   4,493 t light; 4,610 t standard; 4,912 t normal; 5,154 t full load

The $$$$ question - how much would this reconstruction cost?


The new:
SMS Graz, Kleiner Kreuzer Habsburgs
laid down 1885 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3 620 t light; 3 980 t standard; 4 912 t normal; 5 658 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300,00 ft / 300,00 ft x 50,00 ft x 22,00 ft (normal load)
   91,44 m / 91,44 m x 15,24 m  x 6,71 m

Armament:
      10 - 5,50" / 140 mm guns in single mounts, 70,00lbs / 31,75kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 11,00" / 279 mm guns (1x2 guns), 615,59lbs / 279,23kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mount
     on centreline aft
   Weight of broadside 1 931 lbs / 876 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 230
   4 - 20,0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Ends:   2,00" / 51 mm     50,00 ft / 15,24 m   10,00 ft / 3,05 m
   Upper:   2,00" / 51 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   5,00 ft / 1,52 m
     Main Belt covers 128% of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,00" / 25 mm   250,00 ft / 76,20 m   20,00 ft / 6,10 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   2,00" / 51 mm         -         2,00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 1,00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2,00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 11 670 ihp / 8 706 Kw = 20,00 kts
   Range 8 000nm at 12,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1 679 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   293 - 381

Cost:
   £0,462 million / $1,850 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 250 tons, 5,1%
   Armour: 798 tons, 16,2%
      - Belts: 346 tons, 7,0%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3,8%
      - Armament: 66 tons, 1,3%
      - Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3,8%
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0,3%
   Machinery: 898 tons, 18,3%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 575 tons, 32,1%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 292 tons, 26,3%
   Miscellaneous weights: 100 tons, 2,0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3 418 lbs / 1 550 Kg = 44,4 x 5,5 " / 140 mm shells or 0,8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,36
   Metacentric height 3,0 ft / 0,9 m
   Roll period: 12,1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0,521
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17,32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18,40 ft / 5,61 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Mid (50%):      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Stern:      12,12 ft / 3,69 m
      - Average freeboard:   12,62 ft / 3,85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 192,0%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 80,3%
   Waterplane Area: 10 189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 96 lbs/sq ft or 468 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,89
      - Longitudinal: 2,68
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped


The old:

graz, austro-hungary (hapsburg empire) torpedo boat/destroyer laid down 1885

Displacement:
4,493 t light; 4,610 t standard; 4,912 t normal; 5,154 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
310.70 ft / 300.00 ft x 50.00 ft x 22.00 ft (normal load)
94.70 m / 91.44 m x 15.24 m x 6.71 m

Armament:
4 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns (2x2 guns), 29.60lbs / 13.43kg shells, 1885 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on centreline ends, evenly spread
6 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 12.49lbs / 5.67kg shells, 1885 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, all amidships
6 - 1.10" / 27.9 mm guns in single mounts, 0.62lbs / 0.28kg shells, 1885 Model
Quick firing guns in deck mounts
on side, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 197 lbs / 89 kg
Shells per gun, main battery: 150
6 - 14.0" / 355.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 2.00" / 51 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Ends: 2.00" / 51 mm 50.00 ft / 15.24 m 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
Upper: 2.00" / 51 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 5.00 ft / 1.52 m
Main Belt covers 128 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
1.00" / 25 mm 250.00 ft / 76.20 m 20.00 ft / 6.10 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 3.00" / 76 mm 2.00" / 51 mm -
2nd: 2.00" / 51 mm - -
3rd: 1.00" / 25 mm - -

- Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Direct drive, 2 shafts, 12,254 ihp / 9,141 Kw = 20.00 kts
Range 3,000nm at 9.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 544 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
293 - 381

Cost:
£0.510 million / $2.042 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 25 tons, 0.5 %
Armour: 777 tons, 15.8 %
- Belts: 346 tons, 7.0 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 185 tons, 3.8 %
- Armament: 45 tons, 0.9 %
- Armour Deck: 188 tons, 3.8 %
- Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.3 %
Machinery: 2,375 tons, 48.3 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,267 tons, 25.8 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 419 tons, 8.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.0 %
10 TONS TORPEDOS (ONE SET OF RELOADS) + 15 TONS MEDIUM WT SET

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
1,840 lbs / 835 Kg = 62.2 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.50
Metacentric height 3.6 ft / 1.1 m
Roll period: 11.1 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.03
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.25

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck
Block coefficient: 0.521
Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
- Stem: 18.40 ft / 5.61 m
- Forecastle (20 %): 12.12 ft / 3.69 m
- Mid (50 %): 12.12 ft / 3.69 m
- Quarterdeck (15 %): 12.12 ft / 3.69 m
- Stern: 12.12 ft / 3.69 m
- Average freeboard: 12.62 ft / 3.85 m
Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 268.9 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 70.4 %
Waterplane Area: 10,189 Square feet or 947 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 85 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 77 lbs/sq ft or 376 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.91
- Longitudinal: 2.43
- Overall: 1.00
Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[The Rock Doctor]

Using the miscellaneous weight instead of the 11" makes more sense to me.  It should also allow for that pesky belt warning to disappear (and yes, I realize that the end belts are the same size and ought to negate the warning).

[P3D]

SS2 always consider Misc weight as underwater and within the protected citadel - i.e. extending the needed length.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
So, we should sim mines as aft guns ... but that's messy. So maybe pay a surcharge - 1,5ton misc weight per mine?

Borys

[Korpen]

SS2 always consider Misc weight as underwater and within the protected citadel - i.e. extending the needed length.

I am pretty certain it was the other way around, and that i why lots of misc weight makes a ship want to turn around...

Shall try and find one of the old threads were that was discussed.

[maddox]

Misc weight in SS II is above the waterline, but within the upper belt.

[Borys]

Korpen, you remember correctly - that is why my tender with 5K misc weight has enough coal (always below the waterline) to to go half way around the equator.
Maddox - if what you say is correct, than it reinforces my stand for 1,5 ton per mine.
Maybe the weight isn't as high as it should, but then it nicely represents the stronger girders and bulkheads to keep the deck up under all that metal.
Borys

[Korpen]

Korpen, you remember correctly - that is why my tender with 5K misc weight has enough coal (always below the waterline) to to go half way around the equator.
Maddox - if what you say is correct, than it reinforces my stand for 1,5 ton per mine.
Maybe the weight isn't as high as it should, but then it nicely represents the stronger girders and bulkheads to keep the deck up under all that metal.
Borys

Or you like what many specialized minelayers did, have the mines below deck.
That also makes it possible to use the ships as fast transports, and the mines can be carried for extended periods of time, as they are sheltered from the elements. That is what I do on my minelayers.

Also, 1,5 ton per mine is excessive, as very few complete mines weight more then 750kg, with most around 700kg, so there is plenty of excess weight in the ton we use.

[maddox]

1 ton for each mine sounds correct.

With an own weight of 750-800 kg and 100 carried, that is 20 tons to 25 tons of extra weight added to the ship itself.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Does the "complete mine" include the chain and sinker?
Borys

[Korpen]

Ahoj!
Does the "complete mine" include the chain and sinker?
Borys

Yes, and a warhead of between 100 and 300kg.
There is plenty of info about mines at www.navweaps.com

[swamphen]

The Germans seem to have rather smaller mines - ~350kg all-up for smaller ones. But 1 mine=1 ton for larger ones (I believe 1500kg all-up...) seems reasonable.

[Borys]

I find the nweapons site to be laking as concerns mines. I'm pretty sure the 350kg mine is actually only the business part, with the sinker+chain wieghting another c. another 350.

Borys

[swamphen]

The one I was thinking of is the E-mine, which is given as a 330lb/150kg charge.

[Korpen]

I find the nweapons site to be laking as concerns mines. I'm pretty sure the 350kg mine is actually only the business part, with the sinker+chain wieghting another c. another 350.

Borys

The normal for a mine seems to be that the warhead is around 1/5 of the total weight.
But it also depends quite a bit on how much wire you want, the deeper you want to be able to place the mine, the less payload.