New Swiss Submarine

[Desertfox]

Well I guess I could change it to something more useful. Seems one off dead ends aren't welcome around here...

[swamphen]

Not when they break The Rules, no.
(And that's the way it should be.)

[Desertfox]

Don't all the experimental one offs break the rules? I still don't see what I could gain by those extra 2kts that is so threatning. I see it more as a liability that an improvement.

[maddox]

Desertfox, it isn't the once off that is putting us Moderators off.

but, I will speak for myself in the following text.

On the Snorkel. The eldest examples, as Hunley or simular subs. They moved at a snails pace. So a tube with a surface of a few feet doesn't matter much, the increased drag slows them down by 10%, and 10% of 2 kts is .2 kts.

The later examples, as show by the Dutch irl couldn't go faster than a few kts under water, not even the best Uboats.
The Schnorkel was meant for slow cruising under water and recharging the batteries during the day.  Even if the mechanical issues would have been solved, the dead give away of a Schnorkels wake at high speed would have defeated the idea's worth.

Even with the modern Dutch subs, who have perfected the Snorkel,  snorkeling speed isn't above 9 kts.
According to inside information, the Snorkling tube can extend 12 meters and has a diameter of 38 cm. With a "fat teardrop shape". Also, if extended to max height, max seaway is 6 beaufort.
The material. Nickel based alloy (like Inconel or hastaloy)
If this information is true, the Snorkel alone weights 6 tons.
Imagine the hydraulics needed to raise this. Against the water pressure of about 92 tons in total.

********************************************************************

On the old Forum, when I ruled supreme on these matters, a good story and educated research could have made it possible. With as drawback that anyone with these premises could advance tech a lot in a short time.
Now there needs to be a concensus between the 4 moderators; And this New Swiss submarine does not get any approval.

As one we say, Good try, no cigar.

[The Rock Doctor]

What pic are we looking at?  Type A Japanese mini-sub?

My view is that the rules must be rigidly enforced, or they aren't really rules.  Allowing exceptions is dangerous, unless they are spectacular failures, as it sets a precedent that the technology does work and ought to be repeatable.

One premature innovation would be an interesting historical footnote; too many premature innovations lead to a vessel decades ahead of its time.

(and let me add that I think the range is excessive for the time period, especially if it's supposed to be a coastal boat).

[Walter]

There is a bit about the development of the snorkel on http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/classes/class_o2.htm

Thanks for that link...
... and I think that the "The boats of the O 4 type had a small (and problematic) pipe." bit says it all about those really early schnorkels.

[Ithekro]

For the wesworld crowd, I would point to the seemingly endless technology debates that, oddly enough, involve Italy.  Very highly advanced for the 1930s, yet "possible" due to the technology being studied and tested even before the 1930s, just never really perfected until say, the 1960s or 1970s.

I never liked those debates...always screamed of a form of powergaming by using singular historical examples and running with them as if they had worked like a semi-modern version of the device.

Sure Rohan might be totally fictional with some weird technological ideals, but (at least now) is within the rules as far as I can tell.  It might be working on something rather odd (like say steam powered armored vehicles rather than internal combustion engines) but it doesn't mean it will work at all, or at least no better than what was produced.  I mean, look at the army...horses everywhere.  The navy is really advanced for this age with the 14" guns, but the world is catching up (caught up actually in many cases).  Rohan has been historically slow in propultion until recently.  They still don't think much of torpedoes and have not fitted them to any of their purpose built cruisers or battleships.  They even have some techs, they really aren't using yet (airships).

The Swiss like fast, and they still have the fastest fleet on the planet.  The problem is that they don't have the numbers they need for this war.  They have been lucky against the Germans in terms of capital ship losses, but the Swiss cruiser forces are taking it in the shorts...it is good that that was their largest force.

[Desertfox]

Well since the original seemed to advanced, even if the extra speed had no real use, I guess I'll have to redesign it. The drawing BTW is from the British D-Class.

She's much better than the original and fully rule compliant. Larger, faster on the surface and has good range*. She's no longer a coastal defence vessel. She'll keep a crew only snorkler, so she has to surface to operate the diesels.


D-1 class (1908) (5-9 planned)

Normal displacement, 330 tons, Complement 20-25.
Length (o.a.) 150', Beam 14', Draught (mean) 14'

Torpedo tubes (19.7-inch):
1 submerged (3 reloads)

1 x 50cal MG

Machinery: Diesel/Batteries, 700shp, 1 screws. Speed: 14kt surface, 10kt submerged. Range 2000 miles at 10 knots.


*The range is somewhat high for a period submarine, but the Chinese where somehow able to torpedo a Swiss BB, 1,000 miles away from the nearest base.

[Korpen]

*The range is somewhat high for a period submarine, but the Chinese where somehow able to torpedo a Swiss BB, 1,000 miles away from the nearest base.

Ever heard about "Tenders"?
That sub was not even 200nm from a base...

[Carthaginian]

Pretty much equal to my old 'Type A' subs.
Nice boats to start out on... range is a bit high, but not impossibly so.
Speed is a bit too high for the Swiss tech, though. A sub with similar displacement would only be making 9 knots with aprox 650 HP. Surfaced speed is also a bit high; do you have the ICE tech to provide that kind of horsepower, or for diesels? The reason that I can only get 11 knots out of my new subs is the fact that I can only put two 200hp petrol engines in them. If I can have higher HP engines than I can nominally produce, I can get much better surfaced speeds out of them.

[Ithekro]

I still see you are operating under the notion that the Chinese warships you are encountering in and around the East Indies are based in China because they are Chinese.  They are not.  It seems fairly clear that they are operating with the Dutch forces.

They are however decent submarines: 500 tons, two or three tubes: 20" torpedoes.

[Desertfox]

I still see you are operating under the notion that the Chinese warships you are encountering in and around the East Indies are based in China because they are Chinese.  They are not.  It seems fairly clear that they are operating with the Dutch forces.

No, I'm assuming they are operating from Bali which is the nearest Allied base. From Bali to the Arafura sea is more than 1,000 miles.

They are however decent submarines: 500 tons, two or three tubes: 20" torpedoes.

But we know absolutely nothing about them, even OOC.

Speed is a bit too high for the Swiss tech, though. A sub with similar displacement would only be making 9 knots with aprox 650 HP. Surfaced speed is also a bit high; do you have the ICE tech to provide that kind of horsepower, or for diesels?

Yes I have the technology, just acquired it in fact:
1905 Cutting Edge(+3):Diesel engines, Land, airship and naval engines up to 750HP, 75 HP aeroplane engines

But I might reduce underwater speed to 9kts, an extra knot doesnt really make a difference.

[Korpen]

No, I'm assuming they are operating from Bali which is the nearest Allied base. From Bali to the Arafura sea is more than 1,000 miles.

I can give you a clue, there are at least three allied naval bases closer to the area then Bali...  8)

[Desertfox]

Unless my maps have serious errors, I can count but one allied base within 1,000 miles of the area, and it happens to be in Swiss hands. In fact the only allied piece of land within 1,000 miles is Buru and last time I checked there was nothing there.

[The Rock Doctor]

Perhaps the Alliances decided that advertising the existence of these bases to the Swiss might not be wise?  God knows Borys was spending enough on little ports here and there...