Fractions

[Borys]

It is not about spending 700 tonnes on a 700 tonnes ship.

It is about spending 150$ on BP, and expecting 0,5 BP production.
We have to spend 300$ to get 1BP production, no partials here - zero or 1 :)

Borys

[miketr]

I would point out that several economics besides Russias are making use of fractional BP's / IC's; myself included.

Also I do not understand the problem with fractional BP or IC we have spread sheets to do the math as long as the fractions are correct.  Forcing use of only whole BP's / IC makes things that much harder for the smaller economic powers.  Its a 2 year job for me to build one 1 IC and would be a 6 year to build a BP.  Factories are not one size operations.   

Michael

[Walter]

(Edit: Crap! I hit the wrong button!!!)
I also use fractional ICs (and will do the same with the BPs) but only for the regions I have (as do you, mike). But if I am not mistaken, the total ICs and BPs will always have to be a whole number. I think that is what P³D is referring to. Iberia has 8 BP and 50 IC. Japan has 7 BP and 45 IC. However, Russia has 10.4 BP and 67.4 IC.

Its a 2 year job for me to build one 1 IC and would be a 6 year to build a BP.

Well, so far I managed to spit out about 1 IC per half year, so obviously you're doing something wrong.
*Looks at Iberian Army upkeep*
Ah yes... I see the problem. :)

[The Rock Doctor]

We have to spend 300$ to get 1BP production, no partials here - zero or 1

I agree with Mike's comments.  

Building capacity over at Wesworld has also been done in this way - 0 BP or 1 "factories", rather than BP - and it has been found to really handicap smaller nations.  It also discourages economic expansion because it takes a very long time to pay for itself.  

Considering how complex some other aspects of the rule set are, I find the BP system to be an unnecessary simplification.  However, if simplifying must be done, require that BP be purchased in 0.1, 0.2, or 0.25 increments - this will allow smaller nations to get some practical growth in a useful period of time.  It will also allow a larger nation to provide its outer regions with modest production capabilities, whereas now it is not really practical to have any production capability in an area with less than two million people and six IC.

But if I am not mistaken, the total ICs and BPs will always have to be a whole number

Correct - but if we're allowed to have partial BP in different regions of our nations, as in Iberia or Hapsburgerland, there's no logical reason to require whole BP at the national level.

[miketr]

Its a 2 year job for me to build one 1 IC and would be a 6 year to build a BP.

Well, so far I managed to spit out about 1 IC per half year, so obviously you're doing something wrong.
*Looks at Iberian Army upkeep*
Ah yes... I see the problem. :)

Right now I put $50 into IC so thats 2/3 of an IC a year.

The army is the size it is because of what I view as the need and roleplaying.  In effect Iberia needs to defend 3 widely seperated locations.

1) Iberia homeland (Spain and Portugal, civil war and bloody foreign intervention within last 10 years)
2) Brazil (a bloody war was fought within 10 years)
3) Philippines (A foreign invasion and civil war within last 10 years)

Unless I were to gut the military totally I would not be able to build 1 IC a year and with such a decentralized setup it would be an act of madness from a defense point of view.  Each part of the empire has to be able to defend itself as it will be months before a relief force could get there.  If the empire were concentrated I could see halving the army budget but its not.  With the history inherited the threat is very real soooo.  See the Great Pacific War also as another reminder not to have weak defenses.

Michael

[Borys]

Ahoj!
1 - fractions of IC in various locations are a legacy of the 2.0 to 3.0 conversion. Thus players ended up with 1,7  or 0,4 IC  in different locations. We were asked, however, to bring up the fractions to round figures ASAP. The fractions resulting from the conversion, or "rounding up in progress" (e.g. player has 1,2 and 1,8 IC, rounds up 1,8  to 2, thus 3,2; can use 3,2; this dissapears after 1,2 rounded up, thus full 4). Over time a player has "full ICs" and uses them. It was not the intention to have fractions usable.

2 - I have 10,5BP in Austria and 1,5BP at Malta. Legacy figures. I can use the resulting 11BP. After I spend 300$ I will have 11BP in Austria and 2BP at Malta.

At present I can spend 64$ civilian money on new IC, and whatever I rob from the military. Almost 1 IC a HY. Or a BP every 5 HYs. I'm happy.

I see merit in the idea of 0,5BPs. But at 75$ a pop, with all (?) players being able to manage 1IC per Year, I do not see a need to change this.

Borys

[miketr]

I see merit in the idea of 0,5BPs. But at 75$ a pop, with all (?) players being able to manage 1IC per Year, I do not see a need to change this.

I do not understand the need for whole BP's.  Its not like we use them that way.

Michael

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The line how far down we go has to be drawn SOMEWHERE. Otherwise we end up with micromanagement.
Borys

[The Rock Doctor]

I would rather have micro-management here than in weapon development, for example. 

Is it any more complicated to manage 0.25 BP at $75 each than it is to manage 1 IC at $75 each?

[miketr]

Ahoj!
The line how far down we go has to be drawn SOMEWHERE. Otherwise we end up with micromanagement.
Borys

What micromanagement?  This isn't higher math we are dealing with here, nothing more complex than long division.  Most of its simple arithmetic something a 5th grader can do.  I am not trying to be diffcult here but I just don't understand the difficulty of tracking fractions as low as 0.05 BP if people want to do that.  I mean 0.05 * 300 = $15 and produces 50 tons of material.

Michael

[P3D]

As Borys mentioned, BP fractions just built cannot be used until the whole BP is finished. Consider it a factory that takes long to finish.
With IC fractions should be OK, most of that fractions usually would go into the "Other expenses" field, at least that's my case.

[Carthaginian]

Factories can often run at reduced rates prior to being opened for full-scale production. Shoot, I've done construction jobs in factories that weren't 'open,' but were sure as heck putting stuff out.

.25 BP would be a good place to draw the line, I think... if we can have partial BP

[Korpen]

Hm, I have always seen BPs as the output of the IC rather then factories as such.

[The Rock Doctor]

We get that the factory, whatever it is, shouldn't be used until finished.  

We're questioning why "the factory" must be defined as a $300 entity that spews out 1,000 t of stuff every six months.  Is there any particular reason that we can't think of "the factory" being a $75 entity that produces 250 t of stuff, or 0.25 BP, each half-year?

[miketr]

As Borys mentioned, BP fractions just built cannot be used until the whole BP is finished. Consider it a factory that takes long to finish.
With IC fractions should be OK, most of that fractions usually would go into the "Other expenses" field, at least that's my case.

But we are dealing with national scale here.  It wouldn't be one factory built and not all factories are not the same size.  As The Rock Doctor suggested if $75 is a good number how about that?  0.25 BP being the smallest possible build size?

Michael