Rules

[The Rock Doctor]

Not yet.  I assume each HBP will be worth some increment of the Industrialization Factor, and each MBP will worth some lesser increment.  Since even the most advanced state of ~1906 should still be a fair bit less industrialized than modern Japan, I expect everybody's still going to have a fair bit of room to grow.

[Ithekro]

I don't doubt that.  Well if we used the larger powers of the time period for baselines and then worked our way down we might find something that works.  France is the closest we have to a real power in Navalism, and it is a mix of France and Britian (in terms of industry)...so not quite as strong as Britian (or maybe as strong as just Britain without the Commonwealth), but stronger than historical France.  Most of the rest of us will be somewhere below that mark.

I was looking at Jane's for construction insperation....The United States was producing 6-8 battleships at a time...in 2 ships per year order (roughly) around this time period.  Britain was building far more than that. to get around 35 dreadnought by 1914-15.  More like 4 ships per year with extras being built for foreign powers.

[P3D]

In my rules the industrial development of a nation is solely expressed by the ratio of factories and population. Factories cover agriculture too to some extent. Undeveloped agricultural nations will have a ratio of less than one. That the ratio multiplied by thousand can give a very good approximation to the PPP GDP of a given nation is just a good bonus.

See the following excel file for historical GDP.
http://www.ggdc.net/maddison/Historical_St...ile_10-2006.xls

One simplification in my rules:
I realized there's no need for MBP, only money and HBP in that system.

[maddox]

But why the far reaching changes?

Most of us aren't to uncomfortable with the "old" rules.

What I dare to propose is to keep the old  HBP, MBP and LBP
(LBP's could also be called "money, with an adatation of the Rocky proposal T = (2*I*P) + (1-I)*Pl)

But change the pricetags, and hammer the distinctions out.

One of the changes I would like to see is a way to get more ships in the water, to give us more seabattles- and that is what the N-verse is about-.

Simple way to do that is change 1 word in the current used rules.

Standard becomes light

[P3D]

I still think we should get rid of the HBP-MBP-LBP trio. Paying for research by industrial production is a bit strained IMNSHO. Pay it for money - but then MBP would only be used to  build MORE and MORE factories. LBP will do everything else.

Hammering out the numbers is the most difficult, to be at least a bit realistic.
At least I did that for the most important parts of my rules.

And yes, light displacement should count.

[P3D]

Some streamlined rules:

The economy of each country is described by three numbers:
-   Population/Manpower (MP), by the million
-    Industrial Capacity, or IC
-   Build Points (BP), representing heavy factories for shipbuilding, artillery construction etc.
Colonies and metropolitan areas are counted separately.

1million population gives $1 revenue, up to the number of factories.
Over this limit their tax is reduced to 1/5.
This is to represent poor, mainly agricultural countries and colonies.

E.g. France, with a population of 40M, and 100 factories would get $40 revenue from the population.
A mainly agricultural country, like China, would have e.g. 300M but only 50 factories.
50M of the population would give you $50, but the rest 250M gives only another $50 for a total of $100.

In addition, each factoryy gives you another $1 revenue.Max starting factory size will be 2-3x population, absolute maximum is 4x.
The $1 revenue/MP is roughly equivalent of$1000 GDP/capita on a PPP (purchase-power-parity) basis, For this era this was ~$5000 for UK and US, 3500 for France, Germany, 4000 for Netherlands, and $700-1000 for delevoping regions.
We will take a ~40-million IRL industrialized country as our example, France.
France had a PPP GDP of $3500. This corresponds to 100 factories, and a half-year wartime income of $140.

Heavy build points, BP, will not contribute to revenue.
During peacetime, only 50% of the budget can be used for military, the rest must be invested in industrial development (IC or Heavy factory). Unused BPs can be used in development, they count as $2. Our veterinary horse, France, e.g. must spend at least $70 on industry.
No such restrictions are in wartime. If the economy is mobilized, however, no industrial development is possible.

Infrastructure
Increasing IC is more difficult when you are more developed.  Cost is 60+income/MP*10, when rthe income is based on when the building was started. Or, for specific values,

Factory Construction cost
Income/MP 1 cost $70
Income/MP 2 cost $80
Income/MP 3 cost $90
Economic growth was 1-2.5% in this era.

Heavy factory cost
200+CurrentBPx10
Maximum HBP: cannot be larger than MP or half of the IC, whichever is smaller.

Ship construction cost
To build 1000t of light displacement 1BP is needed. Cost is SS ship cost in million pounds multiplied by 6. E.g. a battleship for which SS displays £2 million coat, would const $12 in game terms.
Ship upkeep is 4% the purchase cost of the ship each half year. Wartime upkeep is Twice as much. Reserve fleet upkeep is one-fourth of it, 1%.


War Readyness /be able to be deployed or shipped in a short (1 month) notice/: 1
Active (standing army in general): 0.5
Reserve (the equipment is stored, only a frame of the command structure exists, to be filled up during mass mobilization): 0.1

SS cost multipliers
Before  1912: 1
1913 1.09
1914 1.27
1915 1.46
1916 1.64
1917 1.82
1918 2.00
1919 2.18
1920 2.36

Army construction
Dated Cost $4, 0.4BP
Baseline $5, 0.6BP
Advanced (1910) $6, 0.8BP
Cutting Edge(1916) $7, 1BP

Upkeep cost in wartime:
1/2 of purchase cost (no BP) per year.

Research: Research cost is 1$ per turn per project (or should it be $0.5?). Research time is at least 4 turns. In the 4th turn success chance is 25%, raising 25% every successive half year.

Merchant Marine and Railroads

A country can set priorities on land and sea transportation, which should not change very much unless significant overseas possessions were acquired – or lost.
The e the maximum merchant marine size of (IC+2xBP) times 50k GRT times priority (NP).
The maximum length of standard-gauge railroad network at start is maximum IC + 2xBP times 75km times land priority (LP).
The sum of rail/merchant marine priorities must be one i.e. NP+LP = 1. A good rule of thumb is NP=1/3 and LP = 2/3.

Rail network expands on its own. The amount is $x3xLP, where $ is the amount of money spent on economical development.
The merchant marine of a nation is replaced continuously. If it gets below the maximum due to commerce raiding, or raises above, it regenerated 1k GRTx$xNP  per turn.
1 GRT is roughly1t normal displacement, and 0.6 NRT.

[P3D]

Translation between old and new system:

Population 1 old MP (4 million) becomes 4 new (1 million each).
Increase (H)BP by 50%.
MBP to IC: don't know it yet, I'll figure it out. It won't be direct conversion because nations with low MBP would be disadvantegously affected compared to high MBP nations like GC, Orange and NS.
GDPs will be at (roughly) the same level, but Rohan would come out with the highest revenue

[The Rock Doctor]

So, in the P3D system, total income = (Population with IC) + (Population without IC)*0.2 + (IC)?

In France's case, total income with 40 million folks and 100 IC is then:  40 + 0 + 100 = 140

While China's income with 300 million and 50 IC is:  50 + 250*0.2 + 50 = 150

Increasing IC is more difficult when you are more developed.  Cost is 60+income/MP*10, when rthe income is based on when the building was started. Or, for specific values,

So if France wants to build IC #101, the cost would be 60+(140/40*10) = 60+(3.5*10) = $95?

And for China to add IC #51, the cost would be 60+150/300*10 = 60+(0.5*10) = $65?

Build Points (BP), representing heavy factories for shipbuilding, artillery construction etc.
Colonies and metropolitan areas are counted separately.

So I'm clear on this, the BP figure is not revenue, but represents overall domestic capacity to build the stuff you spend your income on? 

Thus, a nation with, say, 20 BP, can only build 20 BP worth of stuff at home, regardless of whether it's income is $20 or $200?

During peacetime, only 50% of the budget can be used for military, the rest must be invested in industrial development (IC or Heavy factory).

I'd prefer to see players make this decision - balancing military and industrial needs is a part of one's strategy, and different balances may be appropriate depending on each nation's situation.

MBP to IC: don't know it yet, I'll figure it out. It won't be direct conversion because nations with low MBP would be disadvantegously affected compared to high MBP nations like GC, Orange and NS.
GDPs will be at (roughly) the same level, but Rohan would come out with the highest revenue

I'm not sure what your HBP to IC conversion is, but my suggestion would be to convert 5 MBP to 1 HBP, rounding to the nearest HBP.

[BattleofthePyramids]

While we are on the subject, what about technology?  Do we all start with turbine engines and 12 inch guns?  Do we all get to pick and choose (again) or something else?

[maddox]

To many cooks spoil the broth.

I suggest we start a limited ruleadapting group.

With the N-verse rules to start with.  As that was the original idea.
Just a bit of tweaking and adapting to get a world that can take suddenly appearing players better.

[Ithekro]

I just want to see a finished report when you guys get finished so I can translate it to my own nation afterwards.  :)

My original report was a copy of the Russian report, then modifed over time to correct errors and fill in the blanks and look I'd rather have.  I may be a bit too detailed in terms of showing every (well almost every) ship in the fleet, but it helps me when I add or remove ships.

[P3D]

So, in the P3D system, total income = (Population with IC) + (Population without IC)*0.2 + (IC)?

So if France wants to build IC #101, the cost would be 60+(140/40*10) = 60+(3.5*10) = $95?
And for China to add IC #51, the cost would be 60+150/300*10 = 60+(0.5*10) = $65?

Yes. Although I don't know if we should just have a fixed value for simplicity, say $80.

So I'm clear on this, the BP figure is not revenue, but represents overall domestic capacity to build the stuff you spend your income on? 
Thus, a nation with, say, 20 BP, can only build 20 BP worth of stuff at home, regardless of whether it's income is $20 or $200?

Exactly. However, BP is Heavy capacity, and not needed for e.g. infrastructural development or building slipways.

I'd prefer to see players make this decision - balancing military and industrial needs is a part of one's strategy, and different balances may be appropriate depending on each nation's situation.

I'd like to see *some* effect of mobilization on the national economy.

I'm not sure what your HBP to IC conversion is, but my suggestion would be to convert 5 MBP to 1 HBP, rounding to the nearest HBP.

I think IC will be based on both MBP and HBP.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Alikchi - maintanance of fortifications does not cost a thing, as long as you keep troops on top of them.
Borys

[P3D]

OK a revised army statistics and upkeep.

Primitive Rating 2 Artillery 0.5
Dated 3/1
Baseline 4/2 (1895)
Advanced (1905) 5/3
Cutting Edge(1916) 6/4

Cost
$1 and 0.25BP per rating.

If a nation is engaged in trench warfare, units at the theater - units that are not engaging in combat, too - consume artillery ammunition, at a rate of 1000t per corps per Artillery rating.

1000t ammo cost 0.15BP and $0.25.

UK in the Great War had spent more than 4 million tonnes of ammunition, about 5000t per corps per six month.

Upkeep cost: 75% of the purchase cost (no BP) per year, so 37.5% of it for six months.
Wartime upkeep is 1/3 larger, 50% the purchase cost for six months.. Reserves upkeep is one-fifth of it, 1/10 the cost per six month.

So an Advanced Corps would cost $5/2*0.75=$3.75, and $1.875 upkeep per 6 months.
Wartime/ready upkeep would be $2.81 per six months.
Artillery supply for this corps (rating 3) would cost 0.45BP and an additional $0.75.

[P3D]

Sample Semiannual Report

France 1900/1

      Population    IC    HF   Revenue
France         40   100   20      40+100=140
African Colonies   20   5   0      5+(20-5)/5=8
Indochina      10   5   0   5+(10-5)/5=6
-------------------------------------------------------------
Sum:         70   110   20   150

IC: Industrial Capacity
HF: Heavy Factory

Revenue: $150
Army Upkeep

10x Regular Baseline corps
Cost $40 x0.75x0.5 = $15
30x Reserve Baseline corps
Cost $120 x0.75 x0.5 x 0.2 (reserves) = $9
4x Colonial
$16x0.5 x0.75 x1.5= $9

Total army upkeep $33

Navy upkeep
War Readyness: 100kTx$0.05 = $5
Active Navy: 500kTx$0.025 = $12.5
Reserve:200kT $...x0.025x0.25=$1.25
...
Total cost:..
Upkeep: $18.75
Total upkeep: 51.75

Navy construction
BB Ocean, 4HBP, 4+4 of 15, 12 months of 24
BB Bretagne  Authorized, $10, 4HBP of 15, 6 months of 24
PC-1 LaFayette Authorized, $3, 1HBP of 3, 6 months of 13

PC-2  1+2HBP of 3, 12 months of 13
PC-3, 1+2HBP of 3, 12 months of 13
4 Destroyer Authorized, $1 Apiece,$4 total
2 HBP total, 0.5 of 0.5 HBP each

Navy construction budget:$17
Research: $5

Total Expenses:$73.75
For Industrial development:
$76.25

Wartime
44 corps
cost 176x0.5x0.75x1.33=88

Navy upkeep $40
artillery ammo
44x2=88kT x0.25=$22
Navy cost $40

Total:$150