Rules

[Ithekro]

I agree on the confusion factor.  What would help would be a conversion of an existing Navalism nation into these rules using what Manpower, Heavy and Medium factories where present at the end of 1904 along with the militaries involved.

[maddox]

I see a lot of confusing things. 

And 1 big remark.  Navalism started out as a way to explain why designing ships in Springsharp (and untill said otherwise, that is  SS 2) the way the country does.

I don't see much improvement in the proposal compared to the current currency rules set.

2) Build points or "navalism currency"

A country has 4 relevant currencies for our alternative world.
These are determined by created country. Every quarter of a year the amount of build points is available.

Heavy build points or HBP. This is the militairy usable output of the heavy industry, like coalmines, smelting plants, steelmills and simular.

Medium build points or MBP. This is the available output of the less heavy industry, like weaving mills.

Light build points the combination of available manpower and medium build capacity. If enough manpower is used, anything can be build. But without certain technological background this is limited. The limit is imposed by the amount of MBP's and the available manpower. Every 2 manpower points and 1 medium build point gives a country 1 light buildpoint.

Manpower points. The more people in a country, the more manpower can be used to build things, or feed armies. Every 4 milion people represent 1 manpower point.

How to use these points.

Heavy build points are mainly used for the navy, or very heavy artillery.
1 HBP represents a 1000 tons, calculatable in Springsharp as the standard configuration.

Medium build points are mainly used to create armies and payment for research and development.
1 MBP equals 1 research project per quarter.
1 MBP equals the creation of 1 army unit, called a corps, of level 1 strength.
With MBP infrastructure can be build .
Each type infrastructure has its own pricetag,and will be explained later.

Light build points are directly useable to feed the army, but mostly these are "exchanged " towards medium build points in terms of building infrastructure.

Exchange rates between the build points.

1 HBP can be used as 2 MBP
8 MBP equals 1 HBP
It's not easy to make good steel in "home smelters" as learned by the Chinese in the 1960's and 70's. As it is equaly wastefull to use high grade steels in home appliances.

2 LBP equal 1 MBP in terms of infrastructure build up or R&D.
1 LBP equals 1 MBP in army upkeep.

Manpower doesn't has any exchangerate, as you can't build a factory out of human bone. It will change during the gameplay, as the population will grow or decline depending on what is happening.

Added rule/information
There is a limited amount of material and manpower that can put to work on a project during a certain amount of time.
Normal projects of military venture are 1 MBP/HBP a month. But if the need is high -percieved or not- 1 project per quarter can be advanced to a total of 5 MBP/HBP a month.
This means a full trenchline capable of holding a full corps can be constructed in 1 quarter.

Stockpiling Build Points.
Stockpiling build points can have advantages for a rapid growth of infrastructure, suprises in war and other idea's. But alas, storing armorsteel or simular strategic resources tends to be wastefull, so the upper limit of safe stockage is 25%

But as IRL, the end of the Fiscal year brings on a spending spree, to be sure the budgets for next year will be available.

So, to keep it simple , 25% stockpile, except between Q4 and Q1.

I agree that the difference between wartime and peacetime upkeep make it less realistic. But it avoids more complicated rules.
What we could do without making huge changes is to pay peacetime upkeep in LBP or "money", not HBP or MBP.
But for wartime add the current peacetime upkeep in HBP or MBP as appropriate.

[Desertfox]

Too confusing.

However I like some things such as population equal $1, could replace our own confusing MP system. And the Merchant Marine-Railroad exchange system.

On upkeep how about having everything in MBPs, in war it would double, but your factory output would increase by 50%.

[P3D]

Which rules are confusing? I can streamline them if you'd point them out. That's why I put it up.
I can change the Factory construction/economic development if that's needed.

There's a lot o improvements I see. You can use SS ship costs. There's actually some reason why someone should buy new ships from other countries. In the current rules nothing represents money. Say there's a war, and you need more ships - you buy some. Building ships and maintainnig them goes from separate budgets. Mobilizing for war has its own.

Moreover, if we increased army upkeep to some realistic level within current rules, there'd be no MBPs for spend, for anyone.

[Ithekro]

Again, could we have an example using an existing Navalism country's sim report?

[swamphen]

SS ship costs can be way, way off for anything except the U.S. Standards, IIRC. (Interestingly the way I converted HBPs into Reichsmarks in Nv2.0, however, it came out remarkably close to the SS suggested price in pounds...)

I agree that army upkeep should cost more (double current?) but naval upkeep seemed fine to me under the current/old system.

[The Rock Doctor]

Unfortunately, I'm also having a fair bit of trouble following the rules as written.  I'm getting sense that we're talking about money, HBP and MBP, which sounds more complicated than previously.

I do like the notions of ongoing ec-dev, and that army costs are higher; the previous incarnation did seem rather cheap.

I'll read through again if I can make better sense of things.

I went looking in my old boardgames and found a sci-fi game called Imperial Starfire, the rules for which cover the same areas we want covered, except for a starship setting.  I'll see if anything might be applicable.

[P3D]

SS ships is still a good indicator of relative cost if not absolute one - and I used the Tegethoff example to get some meaning here.

I agree, rules are not really coherent, I just wanted to justify how I arrived at specific values.

[Ithekro]

I'd still rather see a full example as we might get it that way.  Some of use are visual learners, some are audio learners...well audio isn't going to work here, but seeing the sets dones on one nations might help the rest of us figure out what you are talking about.

[1Big Rich]

Interesting that Rocky brings up table-top games.  In reading through this thread, it made me think of Third Riech, the one of the few games I've ever sat a table with where build resources needed to be allocated regularly. 

The game is a large scale recreation of World War II in Europe (obviously), concentrating on the major countries/alliances as player responsibilities, i.e., if there are two players, one is Germany/Italy, the other the Allies.  Five players, and it's UK/US, Germany, Italy, France, and Russia, etc.

But for the 'infrastructure' of the war machine, 3R used Base Resource Points (BRP's, or in the langauge of the table "BuRPs") for all purchases.   A single 'currency' would simplify things, though I do understand the desire of the original rules to reflect nations such as the China 'example' that could throw manpower or less-than-heavy industry at a problem.

Regards,

Big Rich

[BattleofthePyramids]

I do agree the rules should be simplified.  One way would be to use national budgets, express everything in terms of dollars, pounds sterling, or what have you instead of heavy,medium and light build points.  Then simply have a price list of what costs what.  Springsharp will do this automatically for ships, we will have to make up costs for forts, divisions, research, etc;

[The Rock Doctor]

It would probably be easier to work with a system that is nothing but "currency".  

Let me suggest a basic framework:

1)  The nation starts with a population, P.

2)  The nation also has an "Industrialization Factor", I, the proportion of the population which is engaged in industrial production.  The remainder of the population is engaged in non-industrial (such as agricultural) production.  An Industrialization Factor of 0 means there's no industry whatsoever - it's an agrarian society, such as a native tribe in the Americas .  An Industrialization Factor of 1 means that the society has few to no citizens fishing, farming, hunting, or ranching, such as perhaps Singapore or Hong Kong.

3)  Each Government collects its usable income from both parts of the economy.  Total income = industrial income + agricultural income.  Let's assume the industrial side is twice as productive as the agricultural side.  Total income, T, would be:

T = (2*I*P) + (1-I)*P.

4)  Government can spend this income on army stuff, navy stuff, strategic infrastructure (merchant shipping, railway, canals), research, and whatever else we think appropriate.

5a)  Navy stuff and merchant shipping can be bought domestically with industrial income, or bought from abroad with either kind of income.

5b)  Army stuff, fortifications, slipways, drydocks, ports, railways, and canals are bought 50/50 industrial (the weapons) and agricultural (the people).  Either can be bought from overseas with the other type of income, in which we're talking imported equipment or hired labor/mercenaries, and it costs a bit more.

5c)  Research can only be done domestically, with industrial income.

5d)  Maintenance for Navy and Army stuff works the same as buying it.

6) Unused income can be either be carried over or allowed to supplement natural industrial growth.

7)  A catch:  The agricultural component of society can only feed four other mouths besides their own.  If the nation's industrialization factor exceeds 0.80, it will have to import food.

[swamphen]

Sounds sound to me.

[The Rock Doctor]

Obviously the cost of the stuff itself will be a separate issue...

[Ithekro]

Is there a translation for our existing system to this system?