Ersatz F, Ersatz F!

[swamphen]

Very nice, but too slow I'm afraid - 18 knots is required to fit in with the exsisting battleships (the ex-French ships will be re-engined after the war).

[maddox]

The 15 kts is enough to get from port to port. 
It is a defensive unit, not ment to chase or run.

With what kind of ship would you attack this little bruiser?  A full sized BB?  An BC? A fleet of cruisers? 

[Desertfox]

A fleet of Long Lance armed Destroyers, it's worked before. ;D

[swamphen]

The 15 kts is enough to get from port to port. 
It is a defensive unit, not ment to chase or run.

Quite true; however the Admiralstab is insistant that the CDBB be able to keep up with the 18-knot "battleline".

This is likely to be the final design, and makes use of (one of) the turbines built for the Original Ersatz F:

- 11,500shp turbine on central shaft; speed @ 11,500shp: 17.64 knots (564 tons)
- 2 x 1,250shp cruising turbines on outer shafts; speed @ 2,500shp: 11.58 knots (122 tons)
- total 14,000shp on three shafts; speed @ 14,000shp: 18.55 knots

Cost in tons to build: 8,996 tons
Cost in $ to build - main turbine already paid for - $9.31

SMS Ersatz F7, German Kustenpanzerschiff laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   9,560 t light; 10,253 t standard; 11,144 t normal; 11,857 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   396.98 ft / 393.70 ft x 85.30 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   121.00 m / 120.00 m x 26.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mount, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Anti-airship gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts

   Weight of broadside 5,577 lbs / 2,530 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:      11.8" / 300 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:      4.72" / 120 mm   164.04 ft / 50.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:      11.8" / 300 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      9.84" / 250 mm
   2nd:      1.97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 14,000 shp / 10,444 Kw = 18.55 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 11.58 kts (Bunkerage = 1,603 tons)

Complement:
   542 - 705

Cost:
   £1.010 million / $4.041 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 690 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 3,591 tons, 32.2 %
      - Belts: 1,792 tons, 16.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 828 tons, 7.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 886 tons, 8.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 686 tons, 6.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,333 tons, 38.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,584 tons, 14.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 260 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     15,264 lbs / 6,924 Kg = 11.7 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 5.3 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 15.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.62 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:         16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):      13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Mid (60 %):      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Stern:         12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Average freeboard:      13.16 ft / 4.01 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 70.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,334 Square feet or 2,261 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 143 lbs/sq ft or 700 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.81
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[P3D]

Add more 105mm guns.
150 shells per gun is a bit too high.

[swamphen]

Added two additional 105mm guns (five per side), and two superfiring deck-mounted 170mm for dispatch of smaller targets without wasting main gun ammo (reduced to 90 rpg).

SMS Ersatz F7-3, German Kustenpanzerschiff laid down 1908 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   9,727 t light; 10,253 t standard; 11,144 t normal; 11,857 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   396.98 ft / 393.70 ft x 85.30 ft x 19.69 ft (normal load)
   121.00 m / 120.00 m x 26.00 m  x 6.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (2x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 6.69" / 170 mm guns in single mounts, 149.91lbs / 68.00kg shells, 1899 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      10 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.27lbs / 16.00kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1903 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
      4 - 0.30" / 7.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.01lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1908 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 5,948 lbs / 2,698 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 90

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ends:   4.72" / 120 mm   164.04 ft / 50.00 m   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.8" / 300 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      9.84" / 250 mm
   2nd:   0.79" / 20 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 7.87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 14,000 shp / 10,444 Kw = 18.55 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 11.58 kts (Bunkerage = 1,603 tons)

Complement:
   542 - 705

Cost:
   £1.055 million / $4.220 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 736 tons, 6.6 %
   Armour: 3,606 tons, 32.4 %
      - Belts: 1,792 tons, 16.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 843 tons, 7.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 886 tons, 8.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 85 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 686 tons, 6.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,438 tons, 39.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,418 tons, 12.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 260 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     14,898 lbs / 6,758 Kg = 11.4 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 2.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 5.2 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.590
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.62 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.94 ft / 4.25 m
      - Mid (60 %):      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Stern:      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.16 ft / 4.01 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,334 Square feet or 2,261 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 147 lbs/sq ft or 717 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.83
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[swamphen]

And after all that...

late January
Hohenzollernhaus, Neue Brandenburg

"Your highness," the Admiral bowed before the Kaiser. "You asked to see our plans for the ship that is to bear your name?"

"Indeed. What have you for me?"

The Admiral spread the plans on the table. The Kaiser looked them over, and frowned. "This is not Ersatz F."

"No, sire. Given the economic constraints of the war and the desire to fit 350mm guns to match the Orangemen's calibre, it was felt that a complete redesign was in order."

"With only four main guns."

"That does seem at first glance to be a regression, sire, however our tactical planners believe that the older type of battleship still has a future as a coast defense ship."

"The name of Kaiser Wilhelm the Second is to be applied to a küstenpanzerschiff?"

"Yes, sire."

"That is not acceptable. What happened to the plans to re-arm Ersatz F with the larger cannon?"

The Admiral was starting to sweat. "The design mounting eight 35-centimetre guns required a reduction in speed, making the ship too slow to operate with the schlachtkreuzers, but still with excessive speed for the existing ships - "

" - three of which now serve as fish havens - "

" - and the six-gun design, while retaining the speed, was considered to have a potential for structural weakness in the centre section, given the removal of the wing turrets and their not being replaced by a Q turret."

"And so you want to build two ships of 10,000 tons each instead."

"Actually only one, sire, economics..."

"That is completely unacceptable!" The Kaiser looked ready to erupt.

"Sire?"

"As the ship is to bear my name it is only natural that I approve the design. Which is seemingly the only thing you have done right here. I hope that the hull of Ersatz F has not yet been scrapped?"

"No, sire, that was to start in mid March - "

"Complete it instead."

The Admiral boggled. "Sire, that still has the economic factor - "

"You were planning on rebuilding these French ships we bought, yes? Scrap them instead. Between them and the Norman ships that closes much of the gap, yes?"

"Yes, sire, but - "

"No buts! Unless you want yours to be roasted over an open fire. I would rather have a fast ship with a large number of small guns than something with a small number of heavy-hitters that is smaller than a breadbox and can't get out of its own way! Build the ship as it was originally designed and as it has been built to date. Oh, you can fiddle with it enough to fit in the Deutenden Stock, but no more."

There was only one thing to say when the emperor laid down the law. "Yes, Kaiser."

[The Rock Doctor]

Ersatz F was laid up from late 1907 to the end of 1908.  Although the Kaiser directed the Admiralty to resume construction on the ship in January 1908, the unfortunate reality of the war meant that priority had to be placed on repairing existing vessels and building up the rapidly depleted torpedoboot force.

On the positive side, this gave the Admiralty time to watch the war unfold and make some back-of-the-napkin design changes they thought might benefit Ersatz F once in service.  Specifically:

-The hull has been bulged for protection against torpedoes and mines (though the midships turrets remain vulnerable points).

-The deck armor has been increased in thickness, since the Swiss have developed a nasty habit of dropping bombs (and occasionally airships) from above.

-The tertiary armament has been up-gunned to 105 mm, which experience with Scharnhorst demonstrated to be a useful anti-torpedoboot weapon.

The end result is that Ersatz F, to bear the name of the current Kaiser, is relatively large for her armament, but should be a sturdy and resilient ship suitable for dealing with Swiss, Maorian, or other threats. 

Original design specs can be found at the top of the thread.  As built:



Ersatz F, laid down 1906 (Engine 1909), resumed 1909

Displacement:
   22,942 t light; 24,416 t standard; 26,322 t normal; 27,846 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 95.14 ft (Bulges 100.07 ft) x 28.71 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 170.00 m x 29.00 m (Bulges 30.50 m)  x 8.75 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft - superfiring
      4 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 865.70lbs / 392.67kg shells, 1906 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      14 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     14 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      16 - 4.13" / 105 mm guns in single mounts, 35.32lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      12 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1906 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 10,682 lbs / 4,845 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   5 - 18.0" / 457 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Ends:   3.94" / 100 mm   229.66 ft / 70.00 m   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.57" / 40 mm   328.08 ft / 100.00 m   26.74 ft / 8.15 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   2nd:   13.8" / 350 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      11.8" / 300 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.57" / 40 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.95" / 75 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 46,000 shp / 34,316 Kw = 22.89 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 3,431 tons)

Complement:
   1,033 - 1,343

Cost:
   £2.231 million / $8.925 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,335 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 9,662 tons, 36.7 %
      - Belts: 4,216 tons, 16.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 511 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armament: 2,602 tons, 9.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,071 tons, 7.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 263 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,190 tons, 8.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,304 tons, 35.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,379 tons, 12.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     27,660 lbs / 12,546 Kg = 32.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 5.8 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.23

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.575
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.57 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.97 ft / 7.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Mid (70 %):      20.51 ft / 6.25 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Stern:      13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.79 ft / 5.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 133.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 37,913 Square feet or 3,522 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 861 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.68
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily