New Confederate Destroyer - 1st/1908

[Ithekro]

Please sim out some sort of fleet tug.  I'm going to need to build some in the near future I think.

[Carthaginian]

Here's the kind of little yardbird that my destroyers would need to drag them into and out of their quays. She's so infinitesimally cheap and light that she's almost not worth budgeting in, though I might actually do it, just to start getting rid of those annoying little fractions that I can't really carry over. ;) I'll do a fleet tug later on.

Yard Tug, Confederate States of America Tugboat laid down 1909

Displacement:
   50 t light; 52 t standard; 55 t normal; 57 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   75.00 ft / 75.00 ft x 15.00 ft x 5.00 ft (normal load)
   22.86 m / 22.86 m x 4.57 m  x 1.52 m

Armament:
      1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 7 lbs / 3 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Petrol Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 200 shp / 149 Kw = 12.81 kts
   Range 1,500nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5 tons

Complement:
   9 - 13

Cost:
   £0.004 million / $0.015 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 1.0 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 1.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 9 tons, 16.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 25 tons, 45.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5 tons, 8.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 15 tons, 26.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     99 lbs / 45 Kg = 17.4 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 0.3 ft / 0.1 m
   Roll period: 10.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.342
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 8.66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 25
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Mid (50 %):      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Stern:      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Average freeboard:   6.86 ft / 2.09 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 93.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 684 Square feet or 64 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 18 lbs/sq ft or 88 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.74
      - Longitudinal: 14.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Carthaginian]

A larger tug design for capital ship work... still not a fleet tug, but the best I can do without a steam engine.

Displacement:
   100 t light; 107 t standard; 126 t normal; 141 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   115.00 ft / 100.00 ft x 20.00 ft x 5.00 ft (normal load)
   35.05 m / 30.48 m x 6.10 m  x 1.52 m

Armament:
      1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      2 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 20 lbs / 9 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.20" / 5 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.20" / 5 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Petrol Internal combustion motors,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 400 shp / 299 Kw = 13.60 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 9.60 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 35 tons

Complement:
   18 - 24

Cost:
   £0.008 million / $0.032 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 1.9 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 0.6 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 0.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 18 tons, 14.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 55 tons, 43.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 26 tons, 20.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 19.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     278 lbs / 126 Kg = 49.2 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 0.7 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.76

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.441
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 28
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 22.60 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Stern:      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Average freeboard:   8.46 ft / 2.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 84.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,267 Square feet or 118 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 24 lbs/sq ft or 116 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.79
      - Longitudinal: 8.95
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Carthaginian]

A large fleet tug, with enough power to tow a warship for short distances.
She won't make more than a couple of knots or go more than a few hundred miles, but 1000 shp should move most anything.

*EDIT: Made it a point to check out the HP figures. 1000shp is sufficient to move my Nuevo Leon battleships (17kt light) at over 7 knots. So, it looks like this ship could tow most capital ships at 5 knots or better for 4000 n. mi. without breaking a sweat.

Displacement:
   400 t light; 419 t standard; 583 t normal; 714 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   215.00 ft / 200.00 ft x 35.00 ft x 6.00 ft (normal load)
   65.53 m / 60.96 m x 10.67 m  x 1.83 m

Armament:
      1 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward
      4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all aft
      4 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns in single mounts, 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (1x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, all raised guns - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 41 lbs / 18 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.25" / 6 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 1,000 ihp / 746 Kw = 14.32 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 14.32 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 294 tons

Complement:
   59 - 77

Cost:
   £0.028 million / $0.112 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 5 tons, 0.8 %
   Armour: 3 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 3 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 70 tons, 12.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 242 tons, 41.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 183 tons, 31.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 80 tons, 13.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,959 lbs / 888 Kg = 145.1 x 3.0 " / 76 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.61
   Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 9.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.02
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.89

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.486
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.71 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 14.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 27
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17.35 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Stern:      6.00 ft / 1.83 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.49 ft / 3.20 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 62.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 150.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,605 Square feet or 428 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 222 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 38 lbs/sq ft or 186 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.40
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Carthaginian]

And yes, I did a drawing for it.
These little craft are designed for coastal defense. They aren't extremely fast or powerful, but they are cheap and can be mass produced. I'm not sure whether or not having a dozen or so (per site) to plug choke points and guard harbors would be a good idea or not, but it was fun to see just how small I could design a 'good' torpedo boat with Springsharp.

I just wish that I could get her faster.
If I could get 28 knots out of it, it'd be worth it.

Also, could these be built to 'merchant standard?"
Just curious, as I've seen other armed ships built that way, and all these basically are is a yacht with a couple of light guns and a pair of torps.



Patrol Craft #1, Confederate States of America Patrol Boat (Torpedo) laid down 1909

Displacement:
   300 t light; 309 t standard; 322 t normal; 333 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   180.00 ft / 180.00 ft x 19.00 ft x 8.00 ft (normal load)
   54.86 m / 54.86 m x 5.79 m  x 2.44 m

Armament:
      2 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (4x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1909 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16 lbs / 7 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   2 - 20.0" / 508 mm above water torpedoes

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 8,000 shp / 5,968 Kw = 26.58 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 10.24 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 24 tons

Complement:
   37 - 49

Cost:
   £0.036 million / $0.146 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 174 tons, 54.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 122 tons, 37.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 22 tons, 7.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2 tons, 0.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     111 lbs / 50 Kg = 19.6 x 2.2 " / 57 mm shells or 0.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.25
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 10.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.10
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.27

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.412
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.47 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 13.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 72 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.46 ft / 3.49 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 180.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 2,008 Square feet or 187 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 43 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 20 lbs/sq ft or 100 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 8.17
      - Overall: 0.67
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Korpen]

Also, could these be built to 'merchant standard?"
Just curious, as I've seen other armed ships built that way, and all these basically are is a yacht with a couple of light guns and a pair of torps.

I would say "No", as there are no civilian ships with turbines at this time.
Other then my minesweepers i think that the only armed ships built to merchant standard are auxillliaries, neither intended for combat.

[Borys]

And my lucky TB killing avisos ... :)

[Carthaginian]

I would say "No", as there are no civilian ships with turbines at this time.

The first ship with turbines was a civilian ship, Korpen. ;)
Also, liners with turbines are being built at this time as well, IIRC.

[Korpen]

I would say "No", as there are no civilian ships with turbines at this time.

The first ship with turbines was a civilian ship, Korpen. ;)
Also, liners with turbines are being built at this time as well, IIRC.

Point.
But neither are what you would call in general usage, unless things are different here on the civilian side, the first liners with turbines were built in 1905.
Generally  I dont thinkwarships should be built to "merchant standard", as that creates other problems with balance.

[Carthaginian]

Point.
But neither are what you would call in general usage, unless things are different here on the civilian side, the first liners with turbines were built in 1905.
Generally  I don't think warships should be built to "merchant standard", as that creates other problems with balance.

Well, these aren't really 'warships.'
They are something more like a WWI subchaser... they are a civilian design co-opted for military service and armed as a patrol boat. They aren't going to survive even a single hit with any real weapon. I was even thinking about having them made out of wood if possible (the boiler compartment would be protected from fires by metal cladding).
They aren't really meant to go out and do combat every day of the week. They are meant to putter around a the mouth of a bay/sound and make sure no one tries to come in, and to rush out, fire torps, and rush back in to spread the good word if they survive. No way they'd survive even a fight with an antiquated destroyer.

They are patrol craft... nothing more, and certainly not proper warships.

[Korpen]

Well, these aren't really 'warships.'
They are something more like a WWI subchaser... they are a civilian design co-opted for military service and armed as a patrol boat. They aren't going to survive even a single hit with any real weapon. I was even thinking about having them made out of wood if possible (the boiler compartment would be protected from fires by metal cladding).
They aren't really meant to go out and do combat every day of the week. They are meant to putter around a the mouth of a bay/sound and make sure no one tries to come in, and to rush out, fire torps, and rush back in to spread the good word if they survive. No way they'd survive even a fight with an antiquated destroyer.

They are patrol craft... nothing more, and certainly not proper warships.

I would say they are highly unsuited for that, direct-drive turbines have a fuel efficiency that is horrible at low speeds, for a ships that will do allot of low-speed steaming, expansion engines are better.

But the thing that marks this ship as a warship is mainly its enormous engines; it got about as much power as a fast ocean liner fifteen times as big.

[Carthaginian]

I would say they are highly unsuited for that, direct-drive turbines have a fuel efficiency that is horrible at low speeds, for a ships that will do allot of low-speed steaming, expansion engines are better.

But the thing that marks this ship as a warship is mainly its enormous engines; it got about as much power as a fast ocean liner fifteen times as big.

Top Fuel dragsters are also poor performers at low speed, Korpen, but drive easily 50x the distance at low speed that they do at high speed. Also, the engine is very powerful, but the rest of the vehicle is actually quite flimsy, and quite simply built. You could buy most of the parts necessary to build the frame at the average hardware store, and could fabricate the rest out of materials found there.

This is a nautical version of those cars- a civilian racing boat (like Turbinia)- with torps on the bows and a few guns to give the larger mosquitoes a hard time.

[Korpen]

Top Fuel dragsters are also poor performers at low speed, Korpen, but drive easily 50x the distance at low speed that they do at high speed. Also, the engine is very powerful, but the rest of the vehicle is actually quite flimsy, and quite simply built. You could buy most of the parts necessary to build the frame at the average hardware store, and could fabricate the rest out of materials found there.

This is a nautical version of those cars- a civilian racing boat (like Turbinia)- with torps on the bows and a few guns to give the larger mosquitoes a hard time.

And just like dragster, it is the engines that are expensive, more then 2/3 of the cost in this case is the engines. The hull is only about ¼ of the cost.

I am not saying that the ship cannot work for its intended purpose, just that is not very efficient as a patrol boat, and that it in no way could be built to merchant standard.

[Carthaginian]

OK, I'll concede the point there.
Though if you are thinking that the ship wouldn't be better than a VTE patrol boat with half the speed, remember that it's primary job it to shoot torpedoes, not to fight with guns. Gunboats can be slow, but torpedo boats must be fast.

[Korpen]

OK, I'll concede the point there.
Though if you are thinking that the ship wouldn't be better than a VTE patrol boat with half the speed, remember that it's primary job it to shoot torpedoes, not to fight with guns. Gunboats can be slow, but torpedo boats must be fast.

Like i said, (in a roundabout way), on that I fully agree! As a disposable torpedo attack craft they are first rate. :)

It is just that I think that the demands for a patrol craft and the one for a fast torpedo attack craft are pretty much in opposition towards each other.