Orange Capital Ships - Old Thread

[Carthaginian]

Waterline length is used in determining whether a ship fits into a drydock.

Only if you leave off part of the bow.
I think that the rules say that it's overall length.

11 - Drydocks
Overal ship lenght is taken is considered.

Thus, the ship is too long.

[P3D]

Er...

The armor is KC, if that's not up-to-date then I want to buy better armor from that foundry.

The guns are 12"/45, and while not as good as a 12"/50, still offers adequate performance. And I could not make better ones, so...

And before I install the equipment I also refurbish the turrets, ammo hoists, increase max gun elevation, and reline the guns, not in their current worn-out state. Best I specify spending $0.5 for it per ship to avoid misunderstandings.

[Carthaginian]

The armor is KC, if that's not up-to-date then I want to buy better armor from that foundry.

Incorrect. It is NOT. Here is the armor chart you posted during the last change.

Armor technology
1880 Cast Iron -20%
1890 Compound -10%
1900 Krupp Cemented 0
1915 All Imp. KC types +10%

You said the armor was recycled form the older ships, none of which were laid down before 1900. Thus, the ships being laid down before 1900, the armor is Compound, not KC, and is inferior to the new-build ships that it will be facing.

The guns are 12"/45, and while not as good as a 12"/50, still offers adequate performance. And I could not make better ones, so...

They are pre-refit tubes, though, and unless the money is spent, they are in 'disrepair.'
When the money is paid according to the new ship they are mounted on, then they will be good to go again, and as good as 75% of the 12" guns out there.

And before I install the equipment I also refurbish the turrets, ammo hoists, increase max gun elevation, and reline the guns, not in their current worn-out state. Best I specify spending $0.5 for it per ship to avoid misunderstandings.

It would, as this was not mentioned in the ship's description, nor was the extra cost factored into the cost of the ships, nor was the additional yard time (6 months) factored into the construction time.

And honestly, if you're waiting till 1912 engine tech is ready (at least the 1st half of 1912, realistically) for laydown, these ships will honestly be in pretty bad shape compared to other ships being laid down at the same time.

For a stop-gap to be in the water by the end of 1912, it was a good design.
For a main-line ship being built from warmed-over parts, it's decidedly inferior.

[P3D]

Incorrect. It is NOT. Here is the armor chart you posted during the last change.
Armor technology
1880 Cast Iron -20%
1890 Compound -10%
1900 Krupp Cemented 0
1915 All Imp. KC types +10%

You said the armor was recycled form the older ships, none of which were laid down before 1900. Thus, the ships being laid down before 1900, the armor is Compound, not KC, and is inferior to the new-build ships that it will be facing.

Incorrect. ;)

Remember there was an intermediate armor (Harvey Nickel) between the 1890 and 1900 ones. That tech was merged into the '1900 KC' tech, first because of people in general ignored its marginal (5%) effect, second because I did not want Italy and Spain (IIRC the two nations without KC armor tech in 1907-08) being handicapped with inferior armor in their new builds so I decided to 'upgrade' the armor of most ships laid down after 1895 (or later). In effect, every ship now on water have up-to-date armor technology save some really old ones in their twenties.

And honestly, if you're waiting till 1912 engine tech is ready (at least the 1st half of 1912, realistically) for laydown, these ships will honestly be in pretty bad shape compared to other ships being laid down at the same time.

I am still undecided what to do, that's the reason why I am piling designs upon designs here. Most probably 2 turrets will go into coastal defense after refurbishment, and one ship will be laid down next quarter:

The 23kts 8x12" ship with 1909 engines. I have to build the 6" guns and casemates (0.4BP, $0.7 higher price). $0.5 for refurbishing turrets, I get 5.2BP and $5.4 savings, Price is therefore 13.6BP and $12.4 with the refurbishment.

Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1910 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   18,800 t light; 19,700 t standard; 21,415 t normal; 22,787 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.00 ft / 557.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 27.50 ft (normal load)
   169.77 m / 169.77 m x 25.91 m  x 8.38 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8,262 lbs / 3,748 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   227.00 ft / 69.19 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 40,436 shp / 30,165 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,087 tons

Complement:
   884 - 1,150

Cost:
   £1.783 million / $7.131 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,033 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 8,195 tons, 38.3 %
      - Belts: 3,903 tons, 18.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 495 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 2,016 tons, 9.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,565 tons, 7.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,838 tons, 8.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,434 tons, 34.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,615 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,252 lbs / 13,269 Kg = 33.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.576
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.84 ft / 5.44 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,847 Square feet or 3,145 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.43
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Tanthalas]

well TY for updating the armor (mumbles about realy needing to clean up his tech section) FYI I discoverd somthing rather odd erlier, I may end up building a BC that is as expensive as my BBs But DAMN what a BC... look in my post at her (im realy dreding drawing it btw)

[Korpen]

About reusing the belt armour, when looking at the BBS that you intend to use for components, i can find no ships that have the same thickness and dimensions on its main belt as the suggested designs. In fact the only BBs with the same armour thickness are the two most modern. While I could buy some changes to the lengths and width of the re-used belt armour by combining components from several ships (possibly creating points of weakness in the armour), any change in thickness would require re-forging the plate (=scrapping)

[P3D]

Eh, indeed.

The only reason those BBs had non-even armor is that I resimmed them from N2-verse as an example how to conform with the new rules - the rules that everyone conveniently ignored about effective armor thicknesses and such.

[Tanthalas]

Eh, indeed.

The only reason those BBs had non-even armor is that I resimmed them from N2-verse as an example how to conform with the new rules - the rules that everyone conveniently ignored about effective armor thicknesses and such.

... sounds about normal.  I dont think im ignoring any rules (conveinently flexing a few maybee ^.^)

[Korpen]

Eh, indeed.

The only reason those BBs had non-even armor is that I resimmed them from N2-verse as an example how to conform with the new rules - the rules that everyone conveniently ignored about effective armor thicknesses and such.

I tried to conform to those rules, but having to do dual conversions on all armour figures entered was just too much work (first multiplied with 0,95, and the result should divide evenly with 25mm) and confusing.

[Ithekro]

I think I pointed out that the trimming rule was pointless as it reflected incorrectly on the ships being simmed.  If a ship has nine inches of armor, it has nine inches of armor, not 8.55 inches of armor.  It is weight that matters for the sim to function properly.  The armor adjustment in taken during combat only.  Then it is armor equivalents that matter against shell penetration.  This is why all Rohan's ships are listed as having Harvey-Nickel Steel Armor before a certain date and Krupps Steel afterwards.  To keep the GM informed that the ship has inferior armor.  There are very few countries that still used compound armor in the 1890s, though some in the 1880s.

Though most of our ships are over armored now because we tent to "armor to deflect out own gun sized" rather than the equivalent hit size...it just spurs increased gun size development.

I don't believe one can shift armor from one ship to another.  Wasn't the armor made to fit one ship only, not mass produced.  (I hope it was added over the ship's hull rather than being part of it on the inside).

[P3D]

Ithekro,

N3 has high armor thickness, as while gun calibers grow with time, battle ranges did not. While Dreadnought's armor is suitable for ranges over 10K, it would not stand up to the shorter ranges

Face hardened armor is an "add-on" on the hull, and its strength largely ignored in structural calculations, only its weight is taken into account - or only in compression not tension.

FH armor is made of blocks, and fastened to the hull by bolts, so can be easily removed (see the training ship conversions after WT), with the space between the hull and armor filled either with teak or concrete. There's nothing that prohibits putting the same armor on another ship.

http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/AMMUNITION/ARMOR.html

8.51 inches or armor equals 9.49 inches or armor (or 9.00 equals 9.99), I don't know of any battle sim that would take half inches of belt armor into account. And only "effective" thickness counts as it is defined in the actual sim.

Therefore only way to reflect any development of armor technology is to increase its 'effective' thickness. 10% increments are easier to calculate, that's why the new numbers.

[P3D]

Rework #2.

Two sets of Belt armor from the old ship is used, one upon the other (3800t), with a 2' deep high 'gap filler' on the top - so no upper belt.

Barbette armor over the weather deck has 12" thickness. Below the old armor is used (1300t reused).
Deck armor plating collected from three different ships should be enough to cover most of the ship. (1500t of 1800).
CTs armor reused (200t)
Armament reused (800t)
Subtract 400t for other losses.

Total savings: 7000t, $7.3 (after refurbishment effort)
Ship cost: 12.3BP and $10.8

Citadel is long so the turrets would fit on the ship.

Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1912 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   19,199 t light; 20,114 t standard; 21,848 t normal; 23,235 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   555.00 ft / 555.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 28.00 ft (normal load)
   169.16 m / 169.16 m x 25.91 m  x 8.53 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8,343 lbs / 3,784 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.1" / 307 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   195.00 ft / 59.44 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.2" / 335 mm   7.70" / 196 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.20" / 335 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 41,022 shp / 30,603 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,122 tons

Complement:
   898 - 1,168

Cost:
   £1.809 million / $7.236 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,043 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 9,049 tons, 41.4 %
      - Belts: 4,614 tons, 21.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 539 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 1,797 tons, 8.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,877 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 222 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,865 tons, 8.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 6,920 tons, 31.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,649 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 322 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     28,561 lbs / 12,955 Kg = 33.1 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.579
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.53 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (50 %):      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.80 ft / 5.12 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,828 Square feet or 3,143 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 102 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 146 lbs/sq ft or 713 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.38
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Orange has three old cruisers designed for commerce raiding that are in need of refit.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=433.0

The ships are large, have extreme range, but seriously underarmed, and slow in the age of turbines. What should I do with them?

A. leave them in the reserve, without upgrade.
B. Refit - cost $2 each. Now I have 3 ships that are outclassed by almost everyone.
C. Install new oil-fired reciprocating engines. I could get 24kts (max SHP limit for reciprocating engines) and the ship would have an immense oil capacity. Cost is $6.5 and 2.3BP, not worth it category.
D1. Scrap, use armament in coastal artillery, I recover a total of 4.5BP and $.
D2. Scrap, and build three coastal defense ships (for export?) reusing old armament and armor. I recover 4BP and $4 scrap.
Vanguarding saves 1.2BP from the old ships, the new vessels would have a displacement of 5250t, 20' draught, a speed of 23kts, and a max range of3000@16 (if oil-fired). 6.6"-3" belt, 1.5" deck, 7.7"/5.5" turrets, 4x8" and 12x6". With Misc. weight provisions for FCS, W/T.
Don't know if it would worth the bother, or I could export it to some neutral NPCs.

Comments?

[Korpen]

Orange has three old cruisers designed for commerce raiding that are in need of refit.

C. Install new oil-fired reciprocating engines. I could get 24kts (max SHP limit for reciprocating engines) and the ship would have an immense oil capacity. Cost is $6.5 and 2.3BP, not worth it category.
Comments?

How would this look?
"C2: C. Install new oil-fired reciprocating engines. Raise speed. Remove aft turret, build cargo space, use the ship as fast minelayer or as a fast transport.
Just a idea.

If not, scrap, the guns and armour is old and not worth vanguarding.

[Tanthalas]

I was going to propose much the same thing as Korpen