Orange Capital Ships - Old Thread

[Borys]

Three battleships approaching 15 year, with 4x12"+8x8", 17kts.
- scrap
Two more, approaching 10 years, 6x12"+12"x6", also 17kts.
- overhaul, keep for Home Defense

Two turbine-driven 20kts 6x12" ship.
Two 23kts fast BB with 6x13.5".

Keep on building 23 knot ships - in 5-8 years time the 20 knotters will take the place of the 17 knotter.

Borys

[P3D]

If I want to install FC on the ship, I need to change engines to free up the 300t misc. weight necessary. For that I have to change the engines. Total cost would be around $5-6 each.

[Borys]

Another solution - keep 20knots as the battleline, with the 23 knotters a "fast division".

The 6x12" ship will be second line soon - look at the hordes of ships with 8, 10, even 14 guns of that calibre - built or finishing. Not to mention 13,5-14 inch ships on the way. Plus the 15 inchers of Muscovy.

Borys

[P3D]

How much of the old armor can I reuse, and how much should I have to remanufacture if I want to build those Vanguards? I've got the idea to build a pair of second-line, "light" battleships from the guns, turrets and armor using the newest of the VTE ships (and two turrets from the older ones). That would give me a division of four 23kts 12" armed fast ship, capable to deal with other 12"-gunned ships, and most armored cruisers. About a year or two before any newer ship would be ready  That two ship would cost as much as one 13.5" gunned one, if I could reuse the armor.
And I lack any adequately armed armored cruiser.

[Borys]

I'd guess that turrets, guns and barbettes can be reused 100%. And I suppose part of the Main Belt and Upper Belt. No idea about deck armour. But I have not come across re-use of armour plating. Anybody know anything?
Borys

[P3D]

There was no reuse of armor plating due to the huge improvement of armor quality between the wars, and also the different armor thicknesses required.
Here I want to use the same armor type.

NB, Orange was ahistorically advanced armor and gun-wise as I created it back in N2 - that's why I could use turrets from my starting N2-verse fleet without any significant change in performance.

[P3D]

I can build the following second-class battleship from recycled components. It's worth noting that the second superfiring turret (or rather, the stability and seakeeping) cost about 1000t. Barbette armor is 12" above the weatherdeck, 9" below (effective 12").

Used components are:
Primary and secondary armament (1033t, $2.066)
Barbette and Turret Armor (1755t)
Main, Upper and End belt, 33% made new (2602 of 3905t)
CT (212t)
One-third of deck armor (520t of 1559t)

Total: 6.1BP and $7.1
So the ship would cost 12.6BP and $10.3.
I could build a 26kts Battlecruiser fast battleship to counter similar vessels, but it would be 3600t heavier and $3 more expensive. Orange going speed freak.

Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1911 (engine 1912)

Displacement:
   18,496 t light; 19,385 t standard; 20,858 t normal; 22,036 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   559.27 ft / 557.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   170.47 m / 169.77 m x 25.91 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8,262 lbs / 3,748 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   227.00 ft / 69.19 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 39,746 shp / 29,651 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,651 tons

Complement:
   867 - 1,128

Cost:
   £1.737 million / $6.947 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,033 tons, 5.0 %
   Armour: 8,183 tons, 39.2 %
      - Belts: 3,901 tons, 18.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 495 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 2,016 tons, 9.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,559 tons, 7.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 212 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,585 tons, 7.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,396 tons, 35.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,362 tons, 11.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     29,670 lbs / 13,458 Kg = 34.3 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 5.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 16.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.21

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.571
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.55 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.60 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.72 ft / 5.40 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 125.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 33,702 Square feet or 3,131 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 105 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 763 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.42
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[P3D]

Rebuilding the 1905 battleships to get them up to 23kts and equip them with FCS. Cost is 3BP and $6.

Whitwatersrand, Orange Battleship laid down 1905 (Engine 1912)

Displacement:
   13,778 t light; 14,468 t standard; 15,696 t normal; 16,678 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   490.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 70.00 ft x 26.00 ft (normal load)
   149.35 m / 149.35 m x 21.34 m  x 7.92 m

Armament:
      6 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (3x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1905 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1905 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 6,534 lbs / 2,964 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   12.20 ft / 3.72 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   140.00 ft / 42.67 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
     19.00 ft / 5.79 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 104 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   331.00 ft / 100.89 m   25.00 ft / 7.62 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      9.00" / 229 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 35,078 shp / 26,169 Kw = 23.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,211 tons

Complement:
   700 - 911

Cost:
   £1.364 million / $5.456 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 817 tons, 5.2 %
   Armour: 6,426 tons, 40.9 %
      - Belts: 3,111 tons, 19.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 459 tons, 2.9 %
      - Armament: 1,254 tons, 8.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,413 tons, 9.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 189 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 1,399 tons, 8.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,836 tons, 30.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,918 tons, 12.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,891 lbs / 8,569 Kg = 21.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 3.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 3.4 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.616
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      23.59 ft / 7.19 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.37 ft / 4.68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 25,463 Square feet or 2,366 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 635 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.44
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[Carthaginian]

I can build the following second-class battleship from recycled components. It's worth noting that the second superfiring turret (or rather, the stability and seakeeping) cost about 1000t. Barbette armor is 12" above the weatherdeck, 9" below (effective 12").

And she shall be called ROS Leftovers. ;)
For the money and the capability, you can't beat her, that's for sure.
Definitely worth building.

[Sachmle]

Just don't forget that you'll need a type 3 slip.

Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1911 (engine 1912)

Displacement:
   18,496 t light; 19,385 t standard; 20,858 t normal; 22,036 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   559.27 ft / 557.00 ft x 85.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)

[P3D]

The "Leftover Battlecruiser" option, on 22000t.

With 1000t less I could get 26kts and good seakeeping (actually this ship has good seakeeping at 26kts), but 27kts could operate better with my 'frigates' (=cruisers). Still, 4000t more than the fast battleship.

Armor covers the whole citadel up to the weather deck, the armor weight for the casemated guns was subtracted. 1.5' of the belt constitutes as 2' underwater belt, thinning down from 12" to 6" (7' belt depth at normal displacement).

Savings reusing old armor should be 6BP and $7 (and I'd decrease savings estimate for the battleship case by 0.5BP and $).is determined by reusing the components. With 9-10" armor it would be possible on 20,000t.

Would it be a waste of steel to build them instead of the slower ships, or I should be fair with all the slower, weaker armed/armored battlecruisers around? Although I guess similar ships will be inevitably laid down in the following years.

Cape 2, Orange Battleship laid down 1911 (engine 1912)

Displacement:
   22,200 t light; 23,180 t standard; 25,031 t normal; 26,511 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   618.45 ft / 616.00 ft x 88.00 ft x 29.00 ft (normal load)
   188.50 m / 187.76 m x 26.82 m  x 8.84 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (4x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1912 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      12 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1912 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 8,370 lbs / 3,797 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   13.50 ft / 4.11 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   216.00 ft / 65.84 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   28.00 ft / 8.53 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      11.0" / 279 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm         -         1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 79,544 shp / 59,340 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,331 tons

Complement:
   994 - 1,293

Cost:
   £2.100 million / $8.400 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,046 tons, 4.2 %
   Armour: 9,071 tons, 36.2 %
      - Belts: 4,318 tons, 17.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 622 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 2,130 tons, 8.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,762 tons, 7.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 240 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 3,172 tons, 12.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,611 tons, 34.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,831 tons, 11.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 300 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     32,345 lbs / 14,671 Kg = 37.4 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.11

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.82 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m (23.00 ft / 7.01 m aft of break)
      - Mid (62 %):      23.00 ft / 7.01 m (15.00 ft / 4.57 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Stern:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.48 ft / 6.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 38,091 Square feet or 3,539 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 156 lbs/sq ft or 760 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.46
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[P3D]

A drawing of the 27kts battleship.

[Tanthalas]

looks good question though dont you think she is a tad heavy? That could just be my Bias for light ships talking, but with both Korpen and I building similar ships on less tonage might want to try and lighten her up a bit. ^.^

[P3D]

By 'similar' you mean all those battlecruisers that have inferior speed, range, protection and even firepower? This ship is ~2000t lighter than the Derfflingers, so I would not say too heavy - and I am reusing old battleship components to keep cost down. I would not build these ships otherwise.

25kts is not enough to scout for the 23kts battleline. And the new Orange cruisers has 27kts speed. I could go for 26kts, but that would slow down cruisers operating with this ship. Speed is very expensive, but Orange can afford it.

[Carthaginian]

By 'similar' you mean all those battlecruisers that have inferior speed, range, protection and even firepower? This ship is ~2000t lighter than the Derfflingers, so I would not say too heavy - and I am reusing old battleship components to keep cost down. I would not build these ships otherwise.

Remember, the guns are older, and the armor inferior. You pointed that out yourself. You aren't going to get quite the range or accuracy out of the old gun tubes that the new ships are getting... at least, not till you pay for their replacement under the "1897 or older equipment" rule that you made. Thus, until these ships go through a 10% refit, the guns will be operating at lowered efficiency.

25kts is not enough to scout for the 23kts battleline. And the new Orange cruisers has 27kts speed. I could go for 26kts, but that would slow down cruisers operating with this ship. Speed is very expensive, but Orange can afford it.

Given that it will take 2 years or so for this ship to be laid down, given the engine date, start time for the tech and average success times for researched techs, 27 knots will be about average for battle cruisers being built with NEW components.

I had no idea that you intended to wait that long to lay down the ship

In this case, I'd say that it'll be hopelessly outdated by the time it leaves the ways, and you'll have a 22,000 ton liability sailing around competing with newer, better ships.