Orange Capital Ships - Old Thread

[P3D]

Looked if it worth refitting my battleship with new engines.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=186.msg1709#msg1709
The surprise is that... it is. The old ones are capable of 17kts. Keeping machine weight constant, I get 3kts extra speed (so they could operate with the 20kts turbine BBs) for the cost of 1.6BP and $3.2. Rest of the extra goes into increased cruising speed (5000@12kts  vs 10kts before) and increasing the bow freeboard. The only drawback is the lack of torpedo defence, but the higher speed somewhat compensates for that.

Suidafrika, Battleship laid down 1897 (engine 1909)

Displacement:
   11,229 t light; 11,838 t standard; 12,914 t normal; 13,775 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390.50 ft / 390.50 ft x 69.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   119.02 m / 119.02 m x 21.03 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1897 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1897 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,942 lbs / 2,695 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17.7" / 450.0001 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.1" / 307 mm   242.00 ft / 73.76 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   6.60" / 168 mm     66.00 ft / 20.12 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     82.50 ft / 25.15 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   7.70" / 196 mm   242.00 ft / 73.76 m   7.50 ft / 2.29 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.2" / 335 mm   7.70" / 196 mm      8.80" / 224 mm
   2nd:   8.80" / 224 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.40" / 112 mm
   3rd:   6.60" / 168 mm         -         6.60" / 168 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.20" / 335 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,399 ihp / 15,218 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,937 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   605 - 787

Cost:
   £1.237 million / $4.947 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 743 tons, 5.8 %
   Armour: 4,789 tons, 37.1 %
      - Belts: 2,115 tons, 16.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,349 tons, 10.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,168 tons, 9.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 157 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 1,569 tons, 12.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,079 tons, 31.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,685 tons, 13.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,086 lbs / 5,482 Kg = 14.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 0.9 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.60
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.671
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.66 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m (13.20 ft / 4.02 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      13.20 ft / 4.02 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.20 ft / 4.02 m
      - Stern:      13.20 ft / 4.02 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.44 ft / 4.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,040 Square feet or 1,955 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 666 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 2.05
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[P3D]

Yet another option is to put a 3m bulge on the sides, and extend the belt armor down a bit as the ship will sit lower in the water.

[Tanthalas]

well i got an extra knot 2 more guns heavier armor all in the same length on my old 1896 BBs  im seriously contemplating the RC.

[P3D]

More 12" guns?

[Tanthalas]

ya 2 more added an extra barb take a look at her.  Mine would be a total reconstruct, added some buldges to her, and a little more total weight like 1200 tons.

[P3D]

Hm, which design of mine you are referring to?

[Tanthalas]

LOL no no no my 1896 RC lol with the new 10 year rule they are overdue, although i have a question for you P3D 12" tripple on a 66' wide hull sound out of line? cause SS will let me do it (actualy its more stable then 3 twins) if you want ill play with yours though im geting preaty good at this reconstruct thing.

[P3D]

Revisited refit, with installing some oil burners for extra range. So cost would be 1.6BP and $4.5.
However, I could still scrap them and use turrets as coastal artillery, with some armor I could recover 1.85BP and $3.7 worth for shore installations, and 1.43BP and $1.43 from scrapping. I would still have 7 battleships besides them. A new battleship would cost as much as the refit cost and savings for the coastal artillery. And coastal defense, esp. around Kaapstad would also free up battleships to operate elsewhere.

Suidafrika, rebuilt Battleship laid down 1897 (engine 1909)

Displacement:
   11,153 t light; 11,763 t standard; 12,954 t normal; 13,907 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390.50 ft / 390.50 ft x 69.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   119.02 m / 119.02 m x 21.03 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 864.00lbs / 391.90kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 256.00lbs / 116.12kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      12 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1897 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 8 raised mounts
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1897 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1897 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 5,942 lbs / 2,695 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 17.7" / 450.0001 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.1" / 307 mm   242.00 ft / 73.76 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   6.60" / 168 mm     66.00 ft / 20.12 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     82.50 ft / 25.15 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   7.70" / 196 mm   242.00 ft / 73.76 m   7.50 ft / 2.29 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.2" / 335 mm   7.70" / 196 mm      8.80" / 224 mm
   2nd:   8.80" / 224 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.40" / 112 mm
   3rd:   6.60" / 168 mm         -         6.60" / 168 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 13.20" / 335 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 20,455 ihp / 15,259 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,144 tons (80% coal)

Complement:
   606 - 789

Cost:
   £1.230 million / $4.921 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 743 tons, 5.7 %
   Armour: 4,791 tons, 37.0 %
      - Belts: 2,116 tons, 16.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,349 tons, 10.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,170 tons, 9.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 157 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 1,543 tons, 11.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,026 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,801 tons, 13.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,266 lbs / 5,564 Kg = 14.2 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.04
   Metacentric height 3.1 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.673
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.66 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.76 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.00 ft / 5.79 m (13.20 ft / 4.02 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      13.20 ft / 4.02 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.20 ft / 4.02 m
      - Stern:      13.20 ft / 4.02 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.44 ft / 4.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 87.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,080 Square feet or 1,958 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 93 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 134 lbs/sq ft or 656 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.02
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[P3D]

The following battleship study was done on the behalf of an unidentified foreign navy. Orange 13.5/40 guns are used. Turret arrangement is AQXY with X superfiring, utilizing input from the Baltic Confederation. Draught kept relatively shallow to ease operations from small harbors.

Unfortunately the Ministry lived with the veto and the deal did not fall through.

Orange export battleship laid down 1909

Displacement:
   18,748 t light; 19,815 t standard; 21,410 t normal; 22,686 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   534.00 ft / 534.00 ft x 89.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   162.76 m / 162.76 m x 27.13 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 1 raised mount
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.40" / 10.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.03lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 11,246 lbs / 5,101 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   2 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   204.00 ft / 62.18 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   150.00 ft / 45.72 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   330.00 ft / 100.58 m   27.00 ft / 8.23 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   7.00" / 178 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   3rd:   6.00" / 152 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 29,236 shp / 21,810 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 5,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,871 tons (90% coal)

Complement:
   884 - 1,150

Cost:
   £2.040 million / $8.158 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,406 tons, 6.6 %
   Armour: 7,768 tons, 36.3 %
      - Belts: 3,068 tons, 14.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 495 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 2,406 tons, 11.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,584 tons, 7.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 216 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,447 tons, 6.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 7,977 tons, 37.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,662 tons, 12.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 150 tons, 0.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,623 lbs / 12,076 Kg = 21.6 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 4.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 4.9 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 17.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.584
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.32 ft / 5.28 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 123.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,242 Square feet or 3,181 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 170 lbs/sq ft or 831 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.57
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Close to perfection.
I'd sacrifice some "gun platform" for Stability. I hate to have it lower than 1,10.

Borys

[P3D]

The costumer preferred a better gun platform.

[P3D]

Orange currently faces a dilemma. Its battleline is rather heterogeneous. Three battleships approaching 15 year, with 4x12"+8x8", 17kts. Two more, approaching 10 years, 6x12"+12"x6", also 17kts. Two turbine-driven 20kts 6x12" ship. Two 23kts fast BB with 6x13.5".
a/ Now I can bring some of the VTE-powered old ships to 20kts, and install FCS on them. The only problem is that this would cost $4-5 each ship, and their torpedo protection is nonexistent.  Rest of the turrets could find their place in shore batteries.
b/ using the armor and guns of the old ships in a new one. I could build a 8x12" BB of 23kts on 18500t, a 20kts one on 17000 or so, a 27kts BC on 22000t (1912 engine year). Also upgrade the existing 20kts BB to get a uniform 23kts battleline if the 23kts version is decided upon. I would spare about 7BP and $8 on reusing old armor (same armor thicknesses all over), even if I have to make like 30% of the armor brand new. These ships would be ready in 1912.
c/ old ships go to reserve/scrapyard after the next pair of 23kts ship is ready in 1913.

Any thoughts?

[Ithekro]

Burn them.  Burn them with fire.  It is the only way to be sure.
Rebuild the newer VTE ships to 20 knots to give your 6 gunned 12" guns ships the same speed and some resemblance to a battle line.  Land the three older ships as coastal defenses/reserve/coastal defense battleship status until the new ships are finished.  If you don't use their guns for coast defenses, instead of one 8x12" guns warship, make two more 6x12" gun warships (at 20 knots) to give you a six ship battle line with the 23 knot faster ships as heavy scouts/offensive strike division to your defensive force/battle line ships that go 20 knots.

[The Rock Doctor]

I'm not sure you could re-use armor effectively - isn't it shaped towards a particular hull?

My own inclination is to tell you to upgrade the turbined-driven ships to 23 knots for uniform speed, then scrap the rest.  Don't re-use the guns on new ships, because they'll be older, inferior guns; even if armor were capable of recycling, I'd pass on that too, as it's probably an older, inferior armor.

Orange has a compact position and no obvious antagonists, so you ought to be able to downsize to four BB at least on a temporary basis...

[P3D]

My old ships have almost up-to-date 12"/L45 guns. Armor is KC.