Orange Capital Ships - Old Thread

[P3D]

Speed 28 knots?
2x3, 2x2 superfiring?
But nevertheless, as she is at 35K tonnes, she's a powerful, Fast Battleship.
Borys

There's no Orange ship with the speed of 28kts. OTOH there is a lot with 28.5-29kts (6 cruisers 2 frigates and a few dozen destroyers).
Orange has adequate experience with the tree-turret-arrangement, so fire control/gunnery issues should be already figured out (this would be the 7th such ship laid down).

The 10-gun version would be only 1000t lighter - or 3000t heavier than the 9-gun one. But let's put some more stuff on the 12-gunned version:


Orange Cruiser with even more armor laid down 1916

Displacement:
   36,200 t light; 38,084 t standard; 40,468 t normal; 42,375 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   719.29 ft / 714.00 ft x 104.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
   219.24 m / 217.63 m x 31.70 m  x 10.06 m

Armament:
      12 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 15,878 lbs / 7,202 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.2" / 335 mm   462.00 ft / 140.82 m   15.50 ft / 4.72 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   189.00 ft / 57.61 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
     63.00 ft / 19.20 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   462.00 ft / 140.82 m   41.00 ft / 12.50 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   9.00" / 229 mm      15.0" / 381 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 15.00" / 381 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 136,133 shp / 101,555 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,290 tons

Complement:
   1,426 - 1,854

Cost:
   £5.963 million / $23.854 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,985 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 14,017 tons, 34.6 %
      - Belts: 4,558 tons, 11.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,402 tons, 3.5 %
      - Armament: 3,740 tons, 9.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,937 tons, 9.7 %
      - Conning Tower: 381 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 5,072 tons, 12.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,676 tons, 36.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,268 tons, 10.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 450 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     48,402 lbs / 21,955 Kg = 39.3 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 7.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.4 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.578
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.87 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.72 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.00 ft / 9.14 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (59 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m (17.00 ft / 5.18 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Stern:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.12 ft / 6.74 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 137.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 53,203 Square feet or 4,943 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 196 lbs/sq ft or 957 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.36
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[P3D]

Increased draught to 33' (which is about as far as I would go on my 16" ships) and extending the end belt, I could squeeze the ship into 29500t. No end belt (pure AoN) would allow a 28500t ship - but as 6-10" equipped ships are possible adversaries that might not be the best idea.
AoN version of the smaller 12-gunned cruiser is 33600t.

Orange Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   29,500 t light; 30,990 t standard; 33,090 t normal; 34,770 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   704.11 ft / 699.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
   214.61 m / 213.06 m x 28.35 m  x 10.06 m

Armament:
      9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.19lbs / 558.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      4 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (2x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.00" / 127 mm guns (6x2 guns), 62.50lbs / 28.35kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12,188 lbs / 5,528 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   12 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.2" / 335 mm   462.00 ft / 140.82 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   235.00 ft / 71.63 m   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
     2.00 ft / 0.61 m Unarmoured ends
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   462.00 ft / 140.82 m   41.00 ft / 12.50 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 117,606 shp / 87,734 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,780 tons

Complement:
   1,226 - 1,594

Cost:
   £4.787 million / $19.150 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,523 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 11,620 tons, 35.1 %
      - Belts: 4,472 tons, 13.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,402 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armament: 2,525 tons, 7.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,910 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 311 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,382 tons, 13.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,536 tons, 34.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,590 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 439 tons, 1.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     37,974 lbs / 17,225 Kg = 30.9 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.540
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.52 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.00 ft / 8.84 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (44 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.92 ft / 6.07 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 101.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 115.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 44,940 Square feet or 4,175 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 176 lbs/sq ft or 858 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[P3D]

Some additional tweaking. 6" secondaries but only 12 guns. Armor reduced: deck shaved down to 3", belt 12" inclined, so protection level is similar to the battleline (13" + 2" armored bulkhead, 2.5"-3" deck).

Orange Cruiser laid down 1916

Displacement:
   28,600 t light; 30,093 t standard; 32,152 t normal; 33,799 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   692.71 ft / 690.00 ft x 93.00 ft x 33.00 ft (normal load)
   211.14 m / 210.31 m x 28.35 m  x 10.06 m

Armament:
      9 - 13.50" / 343 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,230.00lbs / 557.92kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (6x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships, 3 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1916 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      16 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x2 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      16 - 0.36" / 9.2 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1916 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 12,482 lbs / 5,662 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120
   4 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.2" / 310 mm   469.00 ft / 142.95 m   15.00 ft / 4.57 m
   Ends:   5.00" / 127 mm   221.00 ft / 67.36 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 105 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   469.00 ft / 142.95 m   41.00 ft / 12.50 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm      0.50" / 13 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 115,881 shp / 86,447 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,706 tons

Complement:
   1,199 - 1,560

Cost:
   £4.772 million / $19.088 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,561 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 10,841 tons, 33.7 %
      - Belts: 4,138 tons, 12.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,423 tons, 4.4 %
      - Armament: 2,533 tons, 7.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,443 tons, 7.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 305 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,317 tons, 13.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,521 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,552 tons, 11.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 360 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     36,235 lbs / 16,436 Kg = 29.5 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 5.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 5.5 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 16.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.531
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.27 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      31.00 ft / 9.45 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Mid (45 %):      24.00 ft / 7.32 m (16.00 ft / 4.88 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Stern:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:   20.16 ft / 6.14 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 104.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 44,012 Square feet or 4,089 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 99 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 178 lbs/sq ft or 871 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.37
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[maddox]

A 28K cruiser.... I tought I was overdoing with my Demarce IV's.

[P3D]

Well, cruiser in Orange nomenclature, others might say battlecruiser or fast battleship.

[Sachmle]

Well, cruiser in Orange nomenclature, others might say battlecruiser or fast battleship.

And Others may say "Arms race".

[P3D]

This will be the first Orange "fast battleship". So joining late to whatever race is.

[Sachmle]

Was thinking more along the "DKB-OR" past issues. I've never really been clear on which one, or if it was the Swiss, that started the whole 23kt Battleline thing..and now you're planning a 29kt BB...time to get back to SS for me...

[P3D]

The 23kts battleline was 'forced' by the DKB - S&G were ~24kts and the first published KWII study (by Swamphen) had the speed of 23.something knots. Then as Orange I had to decide whether to give the DKB 3kts battleline speed advantage (2 existing BBs of 20kts) or go for 23kts - about the maximum by the engines of the day for the armament in question. That speed was judged adequate for the first generation of BCs (of 24-25kts speed), and I could not get an adequately armored ship capable of 27kts with 80,000SHP. It was on the borderline, but I decided to expand the battleline instead.

Why 29kts? Orange has several ships around this speed, and with the plethora of 27-29kts cruisers/destroyers around the IO should not go below it IMHO. I also had a 31kts design but the SHP issue was at last fixed, so I limited speed at 29kts.

[The Rock Doctor]

I rate Warrior as an armored cruiser, so it's just a matter of nomenclature. 

The design looks good in general, but the number of AA machine guns seems excessive to me.

[Desertfox]

Why the AA guns in the first place? What have aircraft done that would merit the guns? Only zeppelins have proved useful and those can't be shot down by 1" guns.

[Guinness]

Interesting question...

The current gen of CSA Capital Ships (the Enterprises) carry 6x2x1" MGs. This is the standard CSA twin mount, which I imagine being capable of up to 45 degree elevation. Originally, this weapon was useful mostly against small surface craft, but the Confederates surely located them to be useful in AA work as well, in both the Enterprises and the Chattanooga class cruisers.

Additionally, we've flirted with a 1 pounder, and then quickly moved on to a 2 pounder. I've intended to do a little news post about that. This would be roughly equivalent to the RN's Mark II (HA). Essentially, we were looking for something that would be better at shooting holes in GC's airships, if necessary, while still having some use against fixed wing aircraft, and on smaller ships, small surface targets. Enterprise carries 6 single mountings of these.

The next CSA Capital Ships are being designed with space reserved for a new HA 3" mounting, though the gun will not yet exist when they are laid down. I'd expect this gun to hit the scene in 1918 or so. Still, in mounting a pair of these, they'll lose a pair of the 2 pounders.

So some hindsightedness here? Maybe. I still wouldn't really consider this an adequate AA battery against any sort of massed attack. Mostly the AA guns have made it in though as I've wanted something to fill up some space in illustrations. I suspect that the OR's AA loadouts could be an indirect response to the direction followed by the CSA or others.

[P3D]

I have similar thoughts. To stop any massed attack I need more than one MG every 10m or so per side.

So I don't know myself whatever is justified as an AA. Most probably the Italians would use their planes for more than reconnaissance in any future conflict.
BTW large AA weaponry also means significantly increased manning requirements, which might make some navies think about it twice.

[Desertfox]

What massed attacks? There's only been ONE attack by an airplane on a ship, and it failed miserably.

[P3D]

Apparently using all available assets to overwhelm enemy defenses is alien to New Zion.