Torpedo Frigate... and more (for 08/09)

[Carthaginian]

I wanted to design something that could augment the striking power of a light task force against capital ships. The only real way to do this is by torpedoes, and since submarines are still too unreliable to engage targets far from friendly shores, I figured this might be a fairly economical way to deliver them.

Meant as a 'rapid response ship' for action against enemy capital ships, the John Lowe has a very high top speed (28 knots) and a lot of fuel oil to allow it to make long distance flank runs, though it's intended range of action is only about 50% it's actual cruising capability. It carries only light deck guns, as they are meant more as a means of defense against attacking/pursuing destroyers than as a primary attack weapon against larger ships. The John Lowe's true primary weapons are the 4x2 torpedo launchers carried on it's aft decks. Able to be fired onto either beam, they allow the ship to put a massive amount of torpedoes into the water at one time.

They are a lot larger and more expensive than destroyers, but they can cruise for far longer. This enables the John Lowe to serve a second purpose- commerce raiding. It's high speed means it can escape most hunters, and it's lighter deck guns are perfect for hunting merchantmen. If a particularly juicy target is spotted, the torpedoes can be used to sink it more quickly.

They are also equipped with Marconi to act as picked ships, able to spot the enemy, raise the alarm, and then either attack with their torpedoes to attempt to force the enemy to turn away or fall back and contribute their firepower to a fleet battle.



John Lowe, Confederate States of America Torpedo Frigate laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   3,000 t light; 3,104 t standard; 3,510 t normal; 3,835 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   400.00 ft / 390.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 19.00 ft (normal load)
   121.92 m / 118.87 m x 12.19 m  x 5.79 m

Armament:
      2 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      4 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward
      6 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
   Weight of broadside 342 lbs / 155 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150
   8 - 19.5" / 495.3 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 3 shafts, 30,000 shp / 22,380 Kw = 28.07 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 10.76 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 731 tons

Complement:
   227 - 296

Cost:
   £0.329 million / $1.315 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 39 tons, 1.1 %
   Armour: 405 tons, 11.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 26 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 358 tons, 10.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 20 tons, 0.6 %
   Machinery: 1,364 tons, 38.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,143 tons, 32.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 510 tons, 14.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 50 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     1,978 lbs / 897 Kg = 43.4 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 0.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 13.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, raised quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.414
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.75 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 57 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.00 ft / 4.88 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (56 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m (10.00 ft / 3.05 m before break)
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.22 ft / 4.03 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 136.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 9,689 Square feet or 900 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 100 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 66 lbs/sq ft or 320 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.81
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

(break is figured at 56.41% of waterline length, only shows 56%)

So, does it come out being worthwhile?
I'm trying to shift from a 'maintain a huge fleet to crush enemy' strategy to something a little more threat oriented. I don't have a huge overseas empire to protect, I don't have an extremely large expanse of ocean to cover, and I tend to stay out of overseas conflicts if avoidable.

I want to configure some squadrons for a 'rapid response' role- ships that can react to a threat quickly, either neutralizing it or stalling till help arrives. This type of ship seems to fit into that role- it can engage the screen in a running battle or fire torpedoes at capital ships as opportunity presents or simply spy and run away.

It can also cruise looking for merchantmen to sink with light gunfire or patrolling warship groups that it can harry with it's torpedoes if it's put to sea as a raider.

Any suggestions for improvements?

[The Rock Doctor]

Not bad - I assume the heavy deck is to protect from heavy-ish shells at a distance?  An alternative might be to consider ~30 mm belt + deck, to protect against lighter stuff during torpedo runs, raiding, and scouting/shadowing roles.

I'm trying to shift from a 'maintain a huge fleet to crush enemy' strategy to something a little more threat oriented.

I get the impression a lot of the mid-sized fleets are going this way.  In a few years, there might be only a half-dozen navies fielding "battlelines". 

[Borys]

In a few years, there might be only a half-dozen navies fielding "battlelines". 

And that will separate the Men from the Boys ...
:)

Borys

[maddox]

It seems France will need escorts with dozens of the loved 140mm guns to keep those torpedo arsenal ships away.

[Desertfox]

I definately have to get myself one of those! Thought the Mountbattens come close with their 6x18" torpedo boradside, but then the Mountbattens are destroyers not cruisers...

[P3D]

I get the impression a lot of the mid-sized fleets are going this way.  In a few years, there might be only a half-dozen navies fielding "battlelines". 

The nations that are spread all over the globe need cruisers (light, heavy, armored or battle) not battleships for trade protection. While 'localized' nations can afford to keep a battleline.
So most nations will use capital ships in a WWII fashion, single or in pairs, in missions. They cannot take on the battlelines.

[Korpen]

I get the impression a lot of the mid-sized fleets are going this way.  In a few years, there might be only a half-dozen navies fielding "battlelines". 

The nations that are spread all over the globe need cruisers (light, heavy, armored or battle) not battleships for trade protection. While 'localized' nations can afford to keep a battleline.
So most nations will use capital ships in a WWII fashion, single or in pairs, in missions. They cannot take on the battlelines.

I think the reason is that there are fewer major powers , and allot more medium powers.

[Carthaginian]

Rock,

I'm not planning to do away with my battleline just yet... I just want to reduce it to a more manageable size. To field an appreciative battleline in both oceans would be prohibitively expensive. I'm trying to- counting on the N.B. Canal for mobility- reduce my forces to a single, unified battleline that is capable of movement to either coast and being brought to action without refueling (or at least refueling while being transfered through the canal).

I want to support this battleline with ships like the John Lowe- lots of firepower on a fast, mobile platform- that will be able to threaten an enemy fleet enough that they have to make a hard choice: hold off, or engage small, powerful ships that I can afford to loose with large, expensive ships they cannot.

And that will separate the Men from the Boys ...

If a modern battleline of 6 $20 dreadnoughts goes up against 6 of these $3.30 ships, they will be facing some pretty long odds. Even if 2 of my ships are sank before launch, I can still get off 32 torpedoes; I'll split those 32 fish between 3 ships for 10 torps and 2 extras at the farthest. I've probably just sank all three of those ships. Even if ALL my ships get sank it's still a strategic victory, if not a tactical victory. Then I'll have either my new destroyer class with 30 knots and 4 torps each to throw at the survivors or my own battleline... on much more favorable terms.

Suddenly, those massive battleships start looking like great big targets.
Like the Germans said about the Sherman:
"It was a horrible tank. One Panther could kill ten Shermans... but there was always an eleventh Sherman."

It seems France will need escorts with dozens of the loved 140mm guns to keep those torpedo arsenal ships away.

France has little to worry about.
1.) The Confederate States of America has no intent of taking any action- now or in the future- against Glorious France, especially given our newly minted business deals.
2.) The John Lowe is best described as a 'point-defense ship': it rockets out of port, hits an enemy, and gets back to port as fast as possible to repair itself. It's not meant to range around the open ocean, even though it could if called upon.

I definately have to get myself one of those! Thought the Mountbattens come close with their 6x18" torpedo boradside, but then the Mountbattens are destroyers not cruisers...

These girls were designed so they could be flotilla leaders in happy times, as well.
The fact that they are cruisers was simply a side effect of the necessity of going fast and carrying a lot of torpedoes. Believe me, if I could do this job with a ship that costs ¹/₃ as much, I'd do it.

[swamphen]

I like it. :)

*heads off to retool DKB construction plans...*

[Carthaginian]

Darn it!
I didn't figure everyone would like it enough that it would FORCE me to build it!
Ya'll weren't supposed to like it so much! I have a wacky, crazy, 'sure to get shot down' kind of idea and you LOVE IT!

WHY COULDN'T YOU ALL JUST HATE IT!!!

DRAT!

Call Key West and Mobile and tell them to get 3 units a piece on the ways!"
Sheesh!
I come up with a way to save money, and ya'll make me spend more.
:P

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Will it make you feel better if I say it SUCKS?
:)
OK - save some money and remove the 4 inch sideshields ...

And put a single 6 inch fore - if you run into an AMC, it will kill you. AMCs can take a lot of 4,5 inch shells, so you need at least one heavier gun.
Borys

[Desertfox]

That's the whole problem, it's a wacky, crazy idea!  New Switzerland just thrives on that kind of ships!

Suddenly, those massive battleships start looking like great big targets.
Like the Germans said about the Sherman:
"It was a horrible tank. One Panther could kill ten Shermans... but there was always an eleventh Sherman."

Wonder why NS is building Destroyers and TBs like there's no tommorow? Only one battlecruiser planned in the near future.

New Switzeland offers the plans to this design for your consideration. Its based on an enlarged Mountbatten.

NSS Mountbatten+, New Switzerland Destroyer laid down 1907 (Engine 1909)

Displacement:
   731 t light; 772 t standard; 916 t normal; 1,032 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   270.00 ft / 270.00 ft x 27.00 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   82.30 m / 82.30 m x 8.23 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
      3 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1907 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount
      4 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      1 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 1907 Model
     Quick firing gun in deck mount
     on centreline aft, 1 raised gun
   Weight of broadside 180 lbs / 82 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 210
   6 - 19.5" / 495.3 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 15,409 shp / 11,495 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 4,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 260 tons

Complement:
   83 - 108

Cost:
   £0.105 million / $0.422 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 21 tons, 2.2 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 447 tons, 48.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 240 tons, 26.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 186 tons, 20.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     273 lbs / 124 Kg = 6.0 x 4.5 " / 114 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.52
   Metacentric height 1.4 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 9.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.23
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.440
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 16.43 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (30 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Mid (50 %):      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Stern:      11.00 ft / 3.35 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.48 ft / 3.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 178.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 59.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 4,613 Square feet or 429 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 58 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 26 lbs/sq ft or 129 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.52
      - Longitudinal: 1.84
      - Overall: 0.59
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped

[P3D]

You need to redraw it, a single funnel won't be enough for the boilers - but TTs can be placed between funnels.

On big vs. small ship: Question is will these ship get into effective torpedo range before the battleship shells arrive? If effective Torpedo range = 4000yds, then a BB has ~4000yds to pound on those ships. That's 5 minutes (with the other ship not maneuvering), equalling to 240 6" shells and say 45 main caliber round to dodge.

And then I did not mention the screening cruisers that have the job to prevent attacks like this.

Destroyers are SEA DENIAL crafts, with no range outside bases. Works well for jeune école navies. For navies that rely on trade and need SEA CONTROL, they are far less useful. So CSA is doing it right building small ships. DKB, NS, France, Spain and Netherlands OTOH must maintain ships to protect convoys with decent range and seakeeping - cruisers.

[Korpen]

You need to redraw it, a single funnel won't be enough for the boilers - but TTs can be placed between funnels.

On big vs. small ship: Question is will these ship get into effective torpedo range before the battleship shells arrive? If effective Torpedo range = 4000yds, then a BB has ~4000yds to pound on those ships. That's 5 minutes (with the other ship not maneuvering), equalling to 240 6" shells and say 45 main caliber round to dodge.

4000 yards is optimistic, if the battle line is trying to keep distance open, 1000 yards seems a more likely maximum range to fire torpedoes at...
Add to that that if the enemy is moving away (say steaming at 20kts) at 45 degrees, we are looking at about 15 minutes of point blank fire against the torpedo craft.

[Desertfox]

The key to using these effectively is to either attack by night as NS has planned and trained for, or have someone attracting the enemy's attention, which is where CDS come in. The planned 2x13.5" CSA ship would be perfect for that, shooting heavy shells at long range catching the BB's attention. That is a reason why NS practices long range fire. I don't see my BBs and BCs as battle winning weapons, mearly distractions allowing the real ship killers to get close enough to deliver their calling card.

The Swiss Long Lances have an effective range of 5,000 yds. Box in the battleline and add further targets to the mix, and the battleline's job has just become much more complicated, especially if the attack is during low visibility.