Torpedo Frigate... and more (for 08/09)

[P3D]

And Wikipedia says:

The Dutch began cultivation of coffee trees on Java (part of the Dutch East Indies) in the 17th century and it has been exported globally since. The coffee agricultural systems found on Java have changed considerably over time. A rust plague in the late 1880s killed off much of the plantation stocks in Sukabumi, before spreading to Central Java and parts of East Java. The Dutch responded by replacing the Arabica firstly with Liberica (a tough, but somewhat unpalatable coffee) and later with Robusta.

[Korpen]

And Wikipedia says:

The Dutch began cultivation of coffee trees on Java (part of the Dutch East Indies) in the 17th century and it has been exported globally since. The coffee agricultural systems found on Java have changed considerably over time. A rust plague in the late 1880s killed off much of the plantation stocks in Sukabumi, before spreading to Central Java and parts of East Java. The Dutch responded by replacing the Arabica firstly with Liberica (a tough, but somewhat unpalatable coffee) and later with Robusta.

I know, i have read it. But the key word is "much"not "all", there is still plenty of good coffe comming from Java and Sumatra.

But the volumes went down

But for some reason, coffe from sumatra is considred superior to Javanese coffe.

[Desertfox]

No wonder the Dutch have been so cranky lately. :P Losing most of their coffe, ouch!

[Korpen]

No wonder the Dutch have been so cranky lately. :P Losing most of their coffe, ouch!

Well, so far neither Java nor Sumatra have been lost... ;)

[P3D]

Yes but unfortunately their coffee is only enough for domestic consumption...

[maddox]

France demands free passage of any coffee carrying merchants. ;)

[Korpen]

Yes but unfortunately their coffee is only enough for domestic consumption...

Well, that says more about coffe consumption in the netherlands then is does about the volume of coffe pruduced... ;)

But coffe is among the largest commercial corps in the NOI, together with Tea, rubber, oil (palms) and gutaperka. And it it is grown on most of the islands.

[Carthaginian]

France demands free passage of any coffee carrying merchants. ;)

Perhaps we should put an article into the Hague Conventions to allow and merchantmen carrying coffee, alcohol and tobaccoo safe and unmolested passage? :D

[Carthaginian]

As a bonus for anyone still following this thread, i have another ship that I want to throw out there; call it the first Confederate 'battlecruiser' launched. Like the Germans in WWI, we thought that the new large, fast cruisers would be more of a larger, more heavily armored cruiser than a smaller, lightly armored battleship. As an unfortunate result, the Guaymas mounts only 2x5 9.2" turrets, though they are the new 400-pounder models. She also has a slightly higher speed than most other battlecruisers... 25 knots, powered by 4x12,000shp engines. Her range is longer than most Confederate ships. Her armor is stellar for an armored cruiser, mediocre for a battlecruiser, and poor for a fast battleship.

She's a mixed bag of pluses and minuses... but she's one of the possible plans for a new Pacific flagship.


Guaymas, Confederate States of America 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   12,450 t light; 13,160 t standard; 14,341 t normal; 15,286 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   480.00 ft / 480.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   146.30 m / 146.30 m x 24.38 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x2 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft
      4 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (2x2 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1900 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all forward
      6 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all aft
      20 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,713 lbs / 2,138 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   180.00 ft / 54.86 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 96 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   5th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.50" / 64 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,809 Kw = 25.19 kts
   Range 8,300nm at 11.16 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,127 tons

Complement:
   654 - 851

Cost:
   £1.219 million / $4.877 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 569 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 4,517 tons, 31.5 %
      - Belts: 2,447 tons, 17.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 735 tons, 5.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,233 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 102 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 15.2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,157 tons, 36.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,891 tons, 13.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     18,526 lbs / 8,403 Kg = 47.6 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.545
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.91 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Mid (70 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Stern:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.22 ft / 5.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 81.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 147.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 26,665 Square feet or 2,477 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 135 lbs/sq ft or 659 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.04
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Main Gun Layout
               9
          9            9(9)
               9

[P3D]

I know SS does not protest, nut length:beam ratio too low for a 25kts ship. And lengthening-narrowing her will reduce the power-output to reach 25kts. I'd aim for 1:7. Lengthen it to 557'

It can run away from fast BBs, but cannot catch smaller cruisers.

12' high freeboard aft is not enough for a 25kts ship.

The turret arrangement is like  Dreadnought or Kaiser?
IMO hull too short for 3 centerline plus 2 staggered/side turrets plus a huge machinery. Make Y turret raised but incapable of 'superfiring'.
ArmorBelt would give you immunity against your own shell at ~8ky (Target Angle = 0). But barbette is too weak compared to the belt/ or the upper belt is not high enough to cover it.

[Carthaginian]

Turret arrangement is like Dreadnought, except that the freeboard drops off for 144 feet at aft end to allow Z turret to be lower than Y. I also have superfiring tech for BB/AC's now, so that is not an issue. The wing turrets are well forward of anything in the way of boilers or engines.

Apparently, just too many failures in the design to keep it.
I'll go back and try a redesign.
I'm trying to avoid a vanilla design; guess I got more work to do.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
I have a similar design up my sleeve - a mini Von der Tann, with 8x9,45 guns in echeloned turrets.
You seem to have a mini Invincible or Moltke :)
The speed is enough to catch older ACs, and to make newer ones run away. It takes either a numerically superior force of ACs, or battleships to operate in waters guarded by such ships.

I agree on barbette thickness - it is good to have it equal to turret face, or minimally thinner. 6, maybe 7 inches.

ADDED LATER:
Maybe centerline turrets have 6 inch barbettes, and the wing ones 8 inch?

Borys

[Carthaginian]

Here's another try.
The belt is now 10"- 8' above the water, 4' below. The upper belt would cover all the way up to the deck where the freeboard increases, but is now only 6' thick. The batbettes are increased to 8", and the deck is dropped to 1.5"- more in line with a cruiser than a battleship. Speed is only 1/100th of a knot slower, and displacement went up by 500t.

Guaymas, Confederate States of America 1st Class Cruiser laid down 1909

Displacement:
   13,000 t light; 13,721 t standard; 14,930 t normal; 15,897 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   500.00 ft / 500.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 24.00 ft (normal load)
   152.40 m / 152.40 m x 24.38 m  x 7.32 m

Armament:
      6 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (3x2 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1908 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority aft
      4 - 9.20" / 234 mm guns (2x2 guns), 400.00lbs / 181.44kg shells, 1900 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all forward
      6 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all forward, all raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1909 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all aft
      20 - 2.24" / 57.0 mm guns in single mounts, 5.65lbs / 2.56kg shells, 1909 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 4,713 lbs / 2,138 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   200.00 ft / 60.96 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Upper:   6.00" / 152 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   4.00" / 102 mm      8.00" / 203 mm
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -         4.00" / 102 mm
   5th:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1.50" / 38 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 25.18 kts
   Range 9,800nm at 10.31 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,176 tons

Complement:
   674 - 877

Cost:
   £1.239 million / $4.954 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 569 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 4,782 tons, 32.0 %
      - Belts: 2,832 tons, 19.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,049 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 771 tons, 5.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 131 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,182 tons, 14.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,442 tons, 36.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,930 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 25 tons, 0.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     19,928 lbs / 9,039 Kg = 51.2 x 9.2 " / 234 mm shells or 2.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.544
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.36 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      28.00 ft / 8.53 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.00 ft / 7.32 m (22.00 ft / 6.71 m aft of break)
      - Mid (70 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m (12.00 ft / 3.66 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Stern:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.22 ft / 5.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 148.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 27,768 Square feet or 2,580 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 137 lbs/sq ft or 668 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 1.89
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[P3D]

If the upper belt is higher, you don't need 8" barbettes. Problem is that SS does not handle varying barbette thickness.

[Korpen]

Here's another try.
The belt is now 10"- 8' above the water, 4' below. The upper belt would cover all the way up to the deck where the freeboard increases, but is now only 6' thick. The batbettes are increased to 8", and the deck is dropped to 1.5"- more in line with a cruiser than a battleship. Speed is only 1/100th of a knot slower, and displacement went up by 500t.

G

First I should mention that I am no fan of the AC, and I think the ship would be far better off with eight 305mm guns.

That said, I think 20cm is excessive for the barbarettes, only the top of the barbarette can be hit by shells without first penetrating the upper belt

If you want the two guns aft to be at different deck levels, you either need to put one of the superfiring or majority forward, as SS places all turrets marked "aft" behind the midbreak.

Other then that it is a very nice ship in it type. :)